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  #11  
Old 08-30-2013, 04:39 PM
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A lot of people are eagerly and cautiously awaiting the release of the 1/2 ton diesel. Myself included, I am very curious to see how that motor performs.
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  #12  
Old 08-30-2013, 08:12 PM
Driver72 Driver72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by country-boy View Post
I did a fairly simple trade-off between the diesel and the gas. I started with average prices for gas & diesel, both local and national. Then used my personal average miles per year (about 18k). For the Hemi, I used 17 mpg, for the ED I used 28 mpg.
It shows breaking even on the cost of the ED in just over 2 years, and then saving $1300-$1400 a year after that. If I keep the truck 8 years (which is conservative for me), I'll save $7k-$8k. That's nothing to sneeze at!
The towing stats seem to be a wash vs. the Hemi. If the performance is anything even close, then I'm in.

Here's what I see in this:

You used the mpg for city rating for the hemi but then used estimated highway mpg for the ecodiesel.

If you are expecting 28 mpg average out of the ecodiesel in the ram, I think you are going to be disappointed.

Look at it this way:

The Jeep GC with the Ecodiesel has an EPA rating of
21 city
28 highway

And that's in the several hundred pound lighter, more aerodynamic Jeep.
It's also with 3.45 axle ratio.

I believe the Ram with the Ecodiesel gets a 3.55
Though that difference is small, it means the engine will be turning a bit more at the same speeds.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Ram gets the same
21/28 EPA rating, but they'll get that in the base model Ram with the Ecodiesel, an option very few people except work only/business truck owners will choose.

Get a QC or CC and some options and you add another few hundred pounds on.

I think realistically, in "normal" mix driving conditions in a Ram 1500 QC or CC you'll see 23-24 mpg average. But since the Ecodiesel Ram will be quite slow compared to other trucks (even the Pentastar will outrun it when it's unloaded), you may get into the throttle a bit heavier than normal, so you may actually be in the 22-23 mpg average range. Just sayin.
Oh and I currently own a diesel automobile. Unless I drive it like I'm driving Miss Daisy, I don't get the rated EPA highway mileage. But I do, on average, get closer to the highway rating than I do city rating, but that's still driving it on the lighter side than I do with my gas powered vehicles.
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  #13  
Old 08-30-2013, 10:48 PM
Bugguy Bugguy is offline
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I think we will soon see test drive reviews of an Eco Ram. I emailed Ram a few weeks back about order dates the reply I got was very soon he said they had just received their pre productions models so that told him the order date wasn't far off.
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2013, 10:23 AM
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Driver72 - Thanks for some good points.
Actually, I used the combined mpg rating for the Hemi. It's rated at 14/20 or 15/21 depending on where you look and the configuration, but all of the window stickers I looked up show 17 combined.
You're right that I used the high end on the ED mpg. My mistake. We could go back and forth all day long on the ED mpg. True, the jeep ED is rated at 21/28 for 4x4 (it's 22/30 for the 2WD). Motortrend reported they got 26.4 overall on a 4x4 after just a week of driving. So, for sake of argument, let's use 26 for the Ram. I honestly think this is conservative, based on reading quite a few sites - but nothing is solid... so we can only guess.
National gas/diesel ave price: 3.593 / 3.927
mpg (Hemi/ED): 17 / 26
price per mile = 0.15 / 0.21
So @ 18,000 miles/year, the savings with the ED is just under $1,100/year.
Even if you bring the ED down to 24 mpg, the savings is still $859/yr.

FWIW, I live in NY (unfortunately). Using the local average costs for gas/diesel here show even greater savings.

You're right that the ED gets the 3.55. While technically true there will be a difference between this and the 3.45 in the Jeep, I don't think you could measure it. Other tests have shown that a much bigger delta between ratios leads to maybe 1.0 mpg difference, and that's at highway. It drops off in city. So I didn't even bother to consider this factor in the comparison.

It's interesting when you start to compare the Pentastar. With a 3.55 rear end, the Pentastar performs almost even with the Hemi. It's 0.4 seconds slower in the 1/4 mile, and at almost the same speed (88). The 0-60 times are fairly close too (6.9 and 7.5). So it's not that the ED is slow, it's that the Pentastar is *fast*.

The Jeep GC with ED was very, very close too. It was 7.8 sec 0-60, and almost a dead heat with the Pentastar for the 1/4 (maybe 0.1 or 0.2 slower, depending the tester).
And although I can't back it up facts, I really doubt you're going to have to mash your right foot on the ED just to keep up. Not enough to erase $1,000+ a month savings.

Still - I can't wait to drive the ED side-by-side with the Hemi and see how she does. Either way, I can't go too far wrong!
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2013, 10:26 AM
country-boy country-boy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugguy View Post
I think we will soon see test drive reviews of an Eco Ram. I emailed Ram a few weeks back about order dates the reply I got was very soon he said they had just received their pre productions models so that told him the order date wasn't far off.
This is good news! Keep us up to date if you hear more.
Donlen is showing 10/8. I'd rather get the 3.92 myself, but that's even later - 1/13/2014.
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  #16  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:05 PM
Driver72 Driver72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by country-boy View Post
Driver72 - Thanks for some good points.
Actually, I used the combined mpg rating for the Hemi. It's rated at 14/20 or 15/21 depending on where you look and the configuration, but all of the window stickers I looked up show 17 combined.
The 14/20 was the old rating with the 6 speed auto.
With the 8 speed it's 16/22 and 18 combined for 2wd and 15/21 and 17 combined for 4wd.


Quote:
Originally Posted by country-boy View Post
You're right that I used the high end on the ED mpg. My mistake. We could go back and forth all day long on the ED mpg. True, the jeep ED is rated at 21/28 for 4x4 (it's 22/30 for the 2WD). Motortrend reported they got 26.4 overall on a 4x4 after just a week of driving. So, for sake of argument, let's use 26 for the Ram. I honestly think this is conservative, based on reading quite a few sites - but nothing is solid... so we can only guess.
National gas/diesel ave price: 3.593 / 3.927
mpg (Hemi/ED): 17 / 26
price per mile = 0.15 / 0.21
So @ 18,000 miles/year, the savings with the ED is just under $1,100/year.
Even if you bring the ED down to 24 mpg, the savings is still $859/yr.

FWIW, I live in NY (unfortunately). Using the local average costs for gas/diesel here show even greater savings.

You're right that the ED gets the 3.55. While technically true there will be a difference between this and the 3.45 in the Jeep, I don't think you could measure it. Other tests have shown that a much bigger delta between ratios leads to maybe 1.0 mpg difference, and that's at highway. It drops off in city. So I didn't even bother to consider this factor in the comparison.

It's not just the 3.55 vs 3.45 which is probably only .3-.4 mpg difference, it's also that the Ram will weigh at least 300 lbs more equally equipped, and be far less aerodynamic, not so much aerodynamics actually, but it's profile and how much wider and taller surface area that needs to push through the wind that will affect gas mileage. I'd guess on average the Ram ED will get 2-2.5 mpg worse gas mileage than the JGC. I think your estimate of 24 mpg average will be close to realistic. And as you pointed out that's still a savings of $850+ a year. Pretty good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by country-boy View Post
It's interesting when you start to compare the Pentastar. With a 3.55 rear end, the Pentastar performs almost even with the Hemi. It's 0.4 seconds slower in the 1/4 mile, and at almost the same speed (88). The 0-60 times are fairly close too (6.9 and 7.5). So it's not that the ED is slow, it's that the Pentastar is *fast*.
Well I don't think they've tested a comparably equipped Pentastar with a Hemi yet, both with the same gears.
The Pentastar no doubt performs well but that's because it weigh several hundred pounds less.
So technically it has 90 hp less than the Hemi, but when you take weight into consideration, the Hemi really probably has 50-60 hp more.
I think I've seen a Pentastar Crew Cab with 3.55's pretty well optioned doing 0-60 in the 7.5-7.7 second range.
A Hemi CC with 3.55's will do it in 6.8-7.0 (I've gotten 7.0 on my VBox, same unit most mags use, in my Laramie CC 4x4, and that time seems on par to what the mags are getting. Car and Driver recently got an even heavier Laramie Longhorn with the base 3.21 gears to do 0-60 in 7.2 seconds.

So I think equally equipped and with the same axle ratio the Pentastar is .5-.6 seconds slower 0-60. And that makes sense since it's 90 hp advantage diminishes to 50-60 hp when you take weight into consideration too.
Often 10 hp equates to .1 second (that's a very crude way to look at it, but it holds true more often than not).

I'll guesstimate now that the average Ram 1500 Crew Cab Ecodiesel with the 3.55 gears will run a 0-60 in the 8.1 to 8.3 second range.
Not too shabby.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the ED. I actually asked for a 1/2 ton diesel many years ago already, as I've always thought it silly not to have one.
But to me the 240 hp and 420 tq version in the Ram, is a bit short on power.
It's torque isn't that much greater than the Hemi (though the diesel will have it much lower in the rpm band I know) and the 240 hp rating is a bit low.

I used to own a (actually had two of them) BMW 335i and considered the BMW 335d too. BMW's 3.0 liter diesel made 265 hp and 465 tq.

If Ram made their 3.0 ED with 265 hp / 465 tq, that would be sweet (I know you can easily tune it to that, but it would be nice from the factory with it). Then it would not only equal the Pentastar in acceleration, but have a more significant difference in torque over the Hemi. And probably not affect the gas mileage too much, if at all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by country-boy View Post
Still - I can't wait to drive the ED side-by-side with the Hemi and see how she does. Either way, I can't go too far wrong!

I agree, the ED is tempting, even for me, I just wish it had a bit more power from the factory, and the diesel option was only a grand or so more.
If it had both of those, I think I'd be all over it too. As it stands, the rumbling sound of the Hemi is a touch more tempting, but the gas mileage of the diesel is sweet too, even if it is 23-24 mpg average. Now you got me thinking. LOL
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  #17  
Old 08-31-2013, 01:37 PM
mopar44o mopar44o is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by country-boy View Post
Driver72 - Thanks for some good points.
Actually, I used the combined mpg rating for the Hemi. It's rated at 14/20 or 15/21 depending on where you look and the configuration, but all of the window stickers I looked up show 17 combined.
You're right that I used the high end on the ED mpg. My mistake. We could go back and forth all day long on the ED mpg. True, the jeep ED is rated at 21/28 for 4x4 (it's 22/30 for the 2WD). Motortrend reported they got 26.4 overall on a 4x4 after just a week of driving. So, for sake of argument, let's use 26 for the Ram. I honestly think this is conservative, based on reading quite a few sites - but nothing is solid... so we can only guess.
National gas/diesel ave price: 3.593 / 3.927
mpg (Hemi/ED): 17 / 26
price per mile = 0.15 / 0.21
So @ 18,000 miles/year, the savings with the ED is just under $1,100/year.
Even if you bring the ED down to 24 mpg, the savings is still $859/yr.

FWIW, I live in NY (unfortunately). Using the local average costs for gas/diesel here show even greater savings.

You're right that the ED gets the 3.55. While technically true there will be a difference between this and the 3.45 in the Jeep, I don't think you could measure it. Other tests have shown that a much bigger delta between ratios leads to maybe 1.0 mpg difference, and that's at highway. It drops off in city. So I didn't even bother to consider this factor in the comparison.

It's interesting when you start to compare the Pentastar. With a 3.55 rear end, the Pentastar performs almost even with the Hemi. It's 0.4 seconds slower in the 1/4 mile, and at almost the same speed (88). The 0-60 times are fairly close too (6.9 and 7.5). So it's not that the ED is slow, it's that the Pentastar is *fast*.

The Jeep GC with ED was very, very close too. It was 7.8 sec 0-60, and almost a dead heat with the Pentastar for the 1/4 (maybe 0.1 or 0.2 slower, depending the tester).
And although I can't back it up facts, I really doubt you're going to have to mash your right foot on the ED just to keep up. Not enough to erase $1,000+ a month savings.

Still - I can't wait to drive the ED side-by-side with the Hemi and see how she does. Either way, I can't go too far wrong!

Fortunately for me the decision is easier. Now the average is $1.33 a L for both Diesel and Gas but that's cause its a long weekend. Diesel is typically 5-10 cents a L cheaper. So I'll be saving in fuel cost straight up never mind the better mileage...
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  #18  
Old 08-31-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomid25 View Post
Sounds like you've got a good handle on it. If you want to, you could drive the jeep grand cherokee diesel. They're gonna be in production a solid month, month and a half earlier than the ram and are running the same drivetrain.
What randomid25 said
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  #19  
Old 08-31-2013, 03:03 PM
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Kind of interesting reading the Ford truck forums concerning the ED. The threads get quite a bit of attention. Some of the numbers they have been pushing around show the first three gears would be close to the EB in horsepower and tq. First gear for the Ram ED would lay down more HP than the EB and a more tq too. 2nd and third would be very close to if not the same as the EB.

In the upper gears the EB walks away. Since the EB puts down 365 HP it has more power to draw on compared to the 240 hp diesel. The diesel will use the transmission to look for this power (downshifting) where the EB will use the engine then the trans.

If it wasn't for the 8 speed this engine would definitely be a dog.

Since this engine has been available in Europe, tuners are available for it over there so it shouldn't be to long for them to be available here.

Originally Posted by randomid25

http://www.bluesparkautomotive.com/carspecs2?carid=6585

Last edited by Ramzaq; 08-31-2013 at 03:10 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-31-2013, 07:21 PM
teflon74 teflon74 is offline
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you guys realize there is significant costs added to the regular maintenance of owning a diesel right? The mpg numbers may be close but your not figuring in anything for the maintenance and the cost of urea....let alone can the ED really be driven on short city runs and not have issues? Diesel's are meant to get hot when they are driven, short trips don't so anything good for them. Teflon
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