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Custom Dodge Ram Performance Mods - Engine - 5.7 HEMI V8 Discuss modifying your Dodge Ram with Performance Parts and Accessories!
Factory Spec: 5.7-liter HEMI® V8 engine - 390 horsepower, 407 lb-ft of torque.


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  #11  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:45 PM
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To simplify: If you mod, most tunes recommend dropping down to a 180. if you plan on staying stock, stay stock thermostat. There no more half truths or misinformation
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  #12  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moparornocar72 View Post
To simplify: If you mod, most tunes recommend dropping down to a 180. if you plan on staying stock, stay stock thermostat. There no more half truths or misinformation
X2!

Last time I looked this was the Performance Section!

Not the "just eat what the Ram Engineers spoon feed you, don't question it and drive it bone stock until you're ready to trade it in every two years for a new stock turd" section.


stock?

really?

GTFO!

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  #13  
Old 09-05-2013, 12:05 AM
ExpensiveToys ExpensiveToys is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRamHemi View Post
X2!

Last time I looked this was the Performance Section!

Not the "just eat what the Ram Engineers spoon feed you, don't question it and drive it bone stock until you're ready to trade it in every two years for a new stock turd" section.


stock?

really?

GTFO!

I didn't say you shouldn't mod, I said the 180 thermostat hurt performance, economy and longevity of the 2011+ hemi's with MDS. Because of the way the computers in the 2011+ manage the thermal state of the engine you will receive a loss in performance and fuel economy until engine gets up to operating temp as defined in the programming. If engine can't maintain the proper temp you will continue to see drops in performance and economy when engine temp drops.

None of the tuners compensate for that as its programming they can't change. They don't mess with the engine thermal management profiles other than allow you to tweak fan on/off temps which is just a threshold value. They don't modify the MDS parameter tables (other than flipping the on/off flag) or the other half dozen parameters that would need to be modified to make the engine not fight the lower temp stat.

So unless you live in 100 heat year round, drive with your foot always to the floor, or have some flame thrower under the hood that keeps engine up around 190+ then its best to stay away from the 180 stats on 2011 and newer models with MDS. As for most people it equates to an instant loss of performance and fuel economy outside of the summer months.

It's the same thing with non-thermostatic transmission coolers. Cooler isn't always better. Its about a 2% drop in fuel economy alone if tranny is running at 140 degrees vs 190 degrees. So people put in transmission coolers that over cool the trannies and see sluggish shift response and lower fuel economy. The myth of cooler is always better, is just a myth.
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:59 AM
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i have a 180 tstat in my truck i put it in before my tune. call me crazy but i actually gained mpg and i didnt notice any drop in performance whats so ever. after i installed my tuner i gained another mpg and more power of course. for me i live where it snows during the winter and is hot during the summer. once winter hits im gonna switch back to the 220 tstat. personally i dont think a 40 deg difference in temp would or could cause damage to the engine i mean you could drive across a state and experience that type of temp change.
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  #15  
Old 09-05-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveToys View Post
I didn't say you shouldn't mod, I said the 180 thermostat hurt performance, economy and longevity of the 2011+ hemi's with MDS. Because of the way the computers in the 2011+ manage the thermal state of the engine you will receive a loss in performance and fuel economy until engine gets up to operating temp as defined in the programming. If engine can't maintain the proper temp you will continue to see drops in performance and economy when engine temp drops.

None of the tuners compensate for that as its programming they can't change. They don't mess with the engine thermal management profiles other than allow you to tweak fan on/off temps which is just a threshold value. They don't modify the MDS parameter tables (other than flipping the on/off flag) or the other half dozen parameters that would need to be modified to make the engine not fight the lower temp stat.

So unless you live in 100 heat year round, drive with your foot always to the floor, or have some flame thrower under the hood that keeps engine up around 190+ then its best to stay away from the 180 stats on 2011 and newer models with MDS. As for most people it equates to an instant loss of performance and fuel economy outside of the summer months.

It's the same thing with non-thermostatic transmission coolers. Cooler isn't always better. Its about a 2% drop in fuel economy alone if tranny is running at 140 degrees vs 190 degrees. So people put in transmission coolers that over cool the trannies and see sluggish shift response and lower fuel economy. The myth of cooler is always better, is just a myth.

Well said!

Again, cooler is not always better but that doesnt mean let it run hot. Be smart about it. If youre towing you gear mods for towing, if youre racing you gear mods towards racing, off roading you gear mods for off roading. So saying a 180 T-Stat is something you should just throw on for performance is wrong. You WILL change the way youre engine runs. Your engine will try to compensate and maintain the temp its programmed to. How do you think it will do this? More fuel? Look it up.

Same thing with a CAI. They are the biggest waste of money. If you look at the research they wont do anything for a stock car in most cases. In fact in some scenarios it hurt performance on stock.

My point is that a 180 T-Stat is not something I would install as a performance mod on a stock vehicle. If you want to try it go ahead. Let us know what you think. At the end of the day its your truck. You can always switch back if you change your mind.
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  #16  
Old 09-05-2013, 12:47 PM
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If the trans runs better at 190 then why does mine run at 140 from the factory with the factory trans cooler? The higher temps for the motor and trans are for lower emissions and fuel economy. Look at the mods that are done on here to increase air flow, timing and fuel. By your logic these motors are tuned perfect from the factory in every respect and aftermarket mods will only make them worse. Which is far from the case as a few simple bolt on mods easily gets 50 more HP out of these motors with better trans shifts and in some cases better fuel economy. Unless you think the thousands of people on here that mod their truck are part of a vast conspiracy. If Ripp superchargers was able to get a 40%+ increase in HP with a simple bolt on kit and thinks its prudent to put a 180 thermostat in there install kit than it must have merit. These engines are tuned to meet strict EPA standard for emissions and MPG (to achieve high CAFE standards) not for all out performance. Also there are many post with several runs on the dyno. The first dyno pull always has the highest power output when the motor is cold. The subsequent runs show lower and lower power outputs as the engine heats up. This can been seen on the Ripp website where they did 3 dyno pulls in a row on a stock motor and the first (cold) run had the highest power output. Im not making this stuff up, the results are there. See for your self:

http://www.rippmods.com/2009_2011_St...ram57-sds1.htm

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  #17  
Old 09-05-2013, 01:16 PM
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I agree that the engine is more efficient when cool, just not too cool, and IMO the trans normal operating temp at 190 is way too high. I even agree that these engines, from factory, are very restricted. What I'm saying is if you do a mod like a thermostat by itself, without any supporting mods, don't expect a very positive outcome in the long run. The engine will try to bring he engine back up to temp and run rich. That's never good.

I have a diablosport tune on mine and love the performance increase. I also put a trans temp gauge in there to monitor the trans. Usually it'll run around 100 degrees unless I'm towing or it's unusually hot out. I plan on doing exhaust, throttle body, etc. So I agree that go don't want anything too hot in your truck and I'm all for modding the truck.

I just consider a thermostat, by itself, in the same category as a CAI (with no supporting mods), a torsion key level kit, turbo timers, etc. Unless you have a high performance engine or mods to support the 180 T-Stat it's a waste of money. So far no one has proven otherwise to change my change my mind.
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  #18  
Old 09-05-2013, 03:40 PM
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I know see why the engineers post in the other forum and not here.

I never contested that a 180 thermostat in a 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005,2006,2008,2009 or 2010 might improve performance in a hemi truck. As brondondolon states he thinks he is getting better gas mileage on his 2009 which with their programming may very well be the case.

What I said was on the 2011+ (2011, 2012, 2013,2014 and I would assume 2015) that:

"The engines do everything possible to increase heat and get up to 190 degrees. The engineers have done everything possible to get engine, tranny, oil up to temp to reach highest efficiency and reduce wear and tear. Putting in a 180 tstat makes engine work harder and runs a different fuel profile until it gets to temp."

Which means if you install a modification that keeps engine running cooler than the programming wants, you will constantly be fighting the computers programming and you will have a loss in performance and fuel economy as a result. There is no way around this other than having it run in a hot environment or have something else that generates sufficient heat that the 180 stat is irrelevant anyway.

I never stated that I thought a hotter supercharger would run better times than a cold supercharger. Their tests where on a 2010, not a 2011 so doesn't have the same thermo management programming anyway. And I had already addressed that anyway in my second post I when I said that "So unless you live in 100 heat year round, drive with your foot always to the floor, or have some flame thrower under the hood that keeps engine up around 190+ then its best to stay away from the 180 stats on 2011 and newer models with MDS."
supercharger = flamethrower

I know owe Stan a beer, as he said I would end up be sorry if I tried posting and straighten out the myth on the 180 stat in the newer trucks......and he was right.
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  #19  
Old 09-05-2013, 04:57 PM
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Well there are a lot of people on here that have mods to 2011+ trucks and are seeing performance gains and mpg gains with a 180 thermo. How could that be?? Including me. I have a 180 thermo, tuner, CAI, headers, and exhaust with mds turned off. My truck is .5 seconds quicker than stock and still gets 16 mpg in city driving with me doing 0 to 100mph runs at every stop sign.

The original poster asked 2 questions. If a 180 would keep this truck cooler when idelling for long periods of time. Yes it will run around 185 instead of 203. And if you read his future mod list includes a tuner. If you are doing mods to increase air and timing then a mod like a cooler thermo that increases fuel helps to complete the package.

Where do you see that the engine is doing everything it can to increase its temp? And would have to fight cooler temps? I did read about trans warmers to get the trans up to operating temp quicker. But that temp must be 140 where my trans runs stock.
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:25 PM
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This is my last post on the matter, as there are always going to be those making the "but my truck is now faster now". The 180 will result in a loss of performance, you might do things that offset that performance loss but only under very rare conditions (flamethrower) is the 180 tstat going to be necessary and not result in a dip in overall performance in the 2011+ due to the PCM.

All the information is out there and can test it yourself you have a friendly tech at the dealership:
A. its in the Gen III Hemi manual under thermal management and I believe its also mentioned under performance profiles in the PCM section.
B. You can visibly see the selection of a "warm up" profile when ram is under temp and hooked up to the computer. And can watch the computer making bad decisions based on external temp and its inability to warm up. Can drive vehicle hard, watch it warm up and select correct performance profile, then fall back to a wrong profile due to low temp. Since tuners can only change whats in the profiles not when profiles are selected they can't tune out this behavior on 2011+ models.
C. You can see it in the thermal management programming (but I already know that the few here that know that are to chicken to poke there heads in on this thread)
D. Find any of the many interviews and discussions and interviews with Chrysler engineers on the subject. There are all over the place.
E. More specifically just find any of the interviews (in print or on video) involving Mike Cairns, Dave Sowers, Fred Diaz and the engineers on the subject.
F: Under http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/guts_and_glory/ there is a video (I can't find, might have been removed to make room for 2014) that has Fred Diaz discussing the thermal management changes since 2011 and how engine/computer now try to maintain higher oil/coolant/transmission temps.
G. Search the forum here, as there are the rare thread were people are quoting the information from the manuals and tech interviews.
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