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  #11  
Old 05-17-2012, 12:46 PM
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The pin weight listed is going to be the absolute most weight that will be loaded on the pin, when the trailer is properly configured. Trust me, if there is one thing I know, its kingpin weights. Drove a rig for a few years before the service.

You can't factor the empty weight with that kingpin weight and get the correct #'s. If your trailer weight is 13k, I doubt you will have 2k on the pin. maybe 1300. Like tongue weights, the rule is 10% of the total trailer weight (loaded or not). So if your trailer weighs 20k, you should have 2k of pin weight.

The reason your single rear wheel is rated to tow more than a dually is simple really. It fly's in the face of logic until you really think about it.

Picture your SRW with 2k on it, the tire is bubbled a little right? What happens when you apply turning force (TQ) to the wheel? It creates friction. Bu adding a second rear wheel to each side, you INCREASE friction, and therefore resistance. That resistance is what makes a difference in your towing capacity. All other things being equal, it comes down to, your SRW isnt turning 4 tires with a crapload of weight on them, it only has to turn 2. The reason's why many people run dually's eludes me, in most cases it is not nessecary. The only time you REALLY need a dually, is if most/all of your weight is centered over the axle, for the stability. Anyone who has hauled around a bed camper in a SRW and then hauled a camper in a DRW will tell you its night and day. It might feel better towing with a DRW, but when towing, DRW can actually hurt, not help.
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  #12  
Old 05-17-2012, 05:37 PM
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I think I found the error in my math, I am assuming that there is no weight transfered from the trailer to the truck... DOH!!!

The only real way of determining if the trailer is TOO heavy is to actually run it across a scale...

ASSUMPTION SCENERIO

The unit dry weight is 10820, if has a pin rated to 2069 (assumption I still don't know if this is actual dry or a max rating and I am trying to find that out)

Truck has GVWR 10,100, FAWR 5500 and RAWR 6500. The GCWR is 21000 and has a TWR (Tow Weight restriction) of 13500.

I run the scales without the trailer and find I'm weighing 8118lbs FA 4906 RA 3212

I hook up and run the scales and find I weigh 10000lb FA 5000 RA 5000

This mean the trailer is pushing 1882 lbs to the truck and the trailer weight should adjust from 10820 to 8932 (if I haven't added any weight to the unit)

Now doing the math

10000+8938 = 18938 (-2062) Under GCVR
5000 + 5000= 10000 (-100) Under GVWR
King pin is already figured into the GVWR at 1882 but IF Dodge KingPin Capacity is set to 15% of the towing capacity (Ford and Chev are 25%) then King Pin weight can be 3375lbs so I'm under by -1493

I'm -500 on the FA, -1500 on the RA and with a GVWR of 15500 on the trailer I'm under by -4680

Verticle Load percetage on the Kinpin would be 17%


This is how you justify a 3500 to tow a 10-12000 lb 5th wheel

Would this also be the way an enforcement agent would rate the combination??

Thanks

Pte Jack
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  #13  
Old 05-17-2012, 06:20 PM
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Another thing that you could do is get tires that have more plies on the sidewall
The old rating system went something like
4 ply tires had 2 plies on the sidewall
8 ply tires had 3 or 4 plies in the sidewall
etc.


tire rating guide
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=55
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:51 PM
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PHEW! that was a lot of reading and you ended up where I was headed

I am generally a super stickler for this kind of stuff, but Ill just say this:

I really believe you will be FINE. And yes, it will all come down to real world measurements at the scale.

Oh ya, throw on some airbags
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:19 PM
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  #16  
Old 05-19-2012, 12:08 AM
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The decision has been made. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

The weight restrictions of my Longhorn are too low (IMHO) for this trailer. Information received in other forum have indicated that there is a very narrow margin to being under limit, but any weight added to the the unit would move this margin to grossly overweight very quickly, therefore I feel I have to pass on this opportunity.

I encourage people who read threads like this to leave constructive comments, they help people like me make informed decisions for their problems. Who better to ask than those who own, been there and done that. You never know, it might be you looking for an answer one day.

Rant of the day...
One piece of advise for those looking for a 3500 vehicle to haul heavy weight. Thoroughly read the specs of the truck you intend to buy, don't listen to hype on what a lesser model will do from your sales rep unless he has personally been raised on a farm and hauled livestock. Your Sales reps assurances does not enhance or improve the manufacturers set restrictions. Insist on minium 4.10 Diff and don't buckle from that. Then go with a single cab, long box, dually, 2x4, no extras. It's the one that's advertised on TV as having the best tow capability. (Check the specs)

Rant of the past week
Even though I love my truck, through the research I've done, I feel like I've bought a glorified 1500 (as far as restrictions go).

I am sure some of you are shaking your heads and are saying IDIOT!! Lock on and go!!! I can say this to you, as a warranty manager for many years, if your vehicle is under warranty and I can prove neglect (being just one of the restrictions mentioned in this thread exceeded) caused the failure, I can legally say you have no warranty. Else, if you have insurance (and I hope you do), have an accident and neglect can be proven (any of the same restrictions exceeded), you will most likely not have insurance cover any of the damage/injury or loss of life.

I just ask that you think about this.

With kindest regard,

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  #17  
Old 05-19-2012, 12:37 AM
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It's too bad that you are not able to get the trailer that you really wanted.

I will however applaud your decision to put legality and safety ahead of your personal desires. As I indicated in some of our other talks, you likely would have been able to hook up and go, but that was not a 'for sure' thing, more speculation from experience. It also would have meant that you would have to monitor each and every change you every made to ensure you didn't go over a rating for the reasons you explained above.
IMO that is not a very stress free and comfortable way to try and enjoy your travels.

I hope you are able to either of -
a) find a trailer that you really like and will always be inside the safe zone regardless of what normal changes take place.

b) find a buyer for your truck that allows you to get a tow unit that is correct for the trailer that you really want.

Which ever way it goes, enjoy your travels and take a bunch of pics for the rest of us to drool over.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:01 PM
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my 2 cents - i was pretty much in the same boat. Had the 2011 2500 Denali HD (Duramax/Allison) with a 41' Holiday Rambler. It pulled just fine - tons of power; but, was close if not over the rated towing capacity. I just converted (yes - long time GM driver, w/ several Duramaxes under the belt) to a DRW Longhorn and would never have done so if not for one of my friends that bought a 3500 Longhorn and loved it. My problem was that the truck rear suspension was just not stiff enough and "bucked" like a bumper hitch model. I solved the problem with add on air bags and have talked to others that did the same thing. But, it was time to get a new truck. IMHO, you will be fine on power, towing and stopping; but, if the ride was similar to mine, it will make for a very long trip. For what it is worth, i tried the Dodge, Denali and King Ranch DRW trucks. The King ranch got the best milage 22+ at hwy speed; but, had the worst ride. The Denali, way short on features (bling); but, i still like that truck). The Longhorn - wow, so much bling and the best ride. The truck i just bought has 4:10s and it gets 16+ at hwy speed. But, i am going to add a programmer. This will all works out for you. You sound like an engineer. 85' Grad Chem Engr here. I don't check this site much; but, would like to know how this turns out for you. Blessed in WA. mark
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:35 PM
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I really appreciate your response Mark, I think you made the RIGHT choice by going with the dually off the bat. I also think you are going to love your truck.


I have to agree with you about the ride of the Longhorn. Sorry, I do not like Fords; never have and Chevy Trucks make me road sick, for some reason it feels like the rear end of the chevy is fighting the front end and there is a tug-of-war effect happening. Their trucks have always felt like this to me, especially the 4x4s.


The Longhorn drives and rides like a tour car (with a light back end in slick conditions. Be carefull of that.)


I'm sure your Longhorn's fuel economy will improve as it is broke in. Even at 14,000KMs (just under 10,000 miles) I am noticing an improvement, both city and hiway, from when I took it off the lot.


Unfortunately, no I am not an engineer or I'd be working to spec modifications required for the truck I already have in order to get it recertified. I've been to a couple of spring shops and have been told, "yes, you can increase capacities of your truck, but you can not change the ratings without having the mods engineered. Modifications must be mathematically proven by an engineer to ensure they meet safety requirements of the new rating being sought." (As discussed earlier in the thread.) I was also told by these spring shops that it would be cheaper to just buy a dually than to even attempt this. So, I run back to the logic, if the truck is spec'd and your load is already at the max you can legally haul, why modify?? You can't add more weight legally anyway.

Airbags or timbrens (I think they are called) to stablize the load yes; springs to add capacity, no.

One would think that with the amount of vehicles out there that someone would have had this done, somewhere; after all, there are converted Dodge 3500 "Haulers" out there, these are modded vehicles engineered to pull 5th wheels, are they not? Surely the specs are aready out there somewhere.

As for the advertised "brochure" pin rate on a 5th wheel being the max the pin can carry, I am learning from 5th wheel owners and RV dealerships that is is not the case. I am being told that the brochure weight is the actual dry weight of the pin when the unit sits on the hitch plate and the unit is dry.

As you add weight to the trailer, the pin weight will flucuate up or down dependent on where you place the load in relation to the trailer wheels. (Normal teeter-totter effect applies here.)

ALSO the logic from my second scenario calulation is NOT the way trailer weights work, the weight of the towed vehicle is a constant. There is no transfer of weight from the trailer to the tow vehicle through connecting to the pin. If the weight of your trailer is 10820lbs, the pin weight is 2065 and your hitch point properly set up and configured, when you tag up the pin weight of the 2065lb will press on the truck but it is not subtracted in any way, shape or form from the weight of the trailer. The weight of the trailer will remain at 10820lbs on the trailer axles. (Confirmed by the RV Dealership; so much for my perception of simple physics.)

I have now taken this situation to the next higher level, the sales manager and his heavy truck adviser of my dealership are agog by this. At first it I got the two headed look as I tried to explain the situation, until I challenged it with the mathematics of my first calculation. They are now unsure of the printed specs of their brouchures and are presently calling Dodge to confirm my logic.

That being said, if you do the math on the current specs I have found for SRW SB 1 tons, doesn't matter what make, every SRW SB 1 ton out there pulling a standard 5th wheel with a pin weight over 1800lb could be over its payload and gross vehicle weight restriction, some maybe drastically; In My Own Humble Opinion anyway....(my gawd, what about SRW SB 2500s pulling these type of units???)

Still, after talking with the sales manager and seeing the stunned look on his face, I do feel as if I have now been heard. I am anxious to hear what Dodge has to say about this and will let this thread know the results of the dealership's query as soon as I know.


With kindest regard,


Pte Jack

Last edited by PteJack; 05-23-2012 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PteJack View Post
As for the advertised "broucher" pin rate on a 5th wheel being the max the pin can carry, I am learning from 5th wheel owners that is is not the case. I am being told that it is the actual dry weight of the pin when the unit sits on the hitch plate and the unit is dry. As you add weight to the trailer, the pin weight will flucuate up or down dependent on where you place the load in relation to the trailer wheels. (Normal teeter-totter effect applies.)This has also been confirmed by RV dealerships. ALSO this logic from my second calulation is NOT true, the weight of the towed vehicle is constant. There is no transfer of to the tow vehicle through the pin. If the weight of your trailer is 10820lbs and the pin weight is 2065, when you tag up the weight of the pin is pressing on the truck and is not subtracted in any way, shape or form from the weight of the trailer, the weight of the trailer is still 10820lbs on the trailer axles. (Confirmed by the RV Dealership and so much for my perspective of simple physics.)
Pte Jack
Someone is giving you bad information. If the trailer weights 10820 lbs and the pin weight is 2065 lbs, then the trailer axle WILL weight 8755 lbs; don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Here is where the proof comes. If your truck has a curb weight of 7392 lbs and your trailer weighs 10820 lbs, then the combined weight on a scale will read 18212 lbs. If it doesn't, the scale has a problem.
If you add the axle weights of the combined unit, they will add up to the same 18212 lbs (+/- a tad for scale grad size). If not, then either the scale is bad, or the scale approaches are not perfectly level.

If the pin weighs 2065 lbs and is placed on the 5th wheel hitch in the truck bed, that same 2065 lbs will press down on the truck and the rear axle weight will increase. Likely, the front axle will change weight slightly up or down depending on the exact placement of the 5th wheel pin. Hopefully it will increase slightly. At this stage the difference between the curb weight of the truck and the scaled weights of the front and drive axle combined will equal 2065 lbs, netting the trucks scaled weight at 9457 lbs.

If the trailer axle weight did not change, then the unit weight would be 9457 + 10820 = 20277 lbs. This would mean that the combined unit would increase in mass by the exact amount of the pin weight thereby defying the laws of physics as we know them, and if this can be proved to exist, I will write the science paper on this and retire with more money than I know what to do with, so will take $75K from the windfall and use it to get you the DRW unit you want.

You can confidently inform the dealer/RV dealer/etc. the the trailer axle WILL weigh the gross trailer weight less the pin weight. The laws of physics dictate this which is why they are laws.....not the general suggestion of physics.

Your math is good; very good in fact.

The part that I am not convinced, is the specified pin weight of the trailer. I am not confident that those that should know, do know.


As for the 'trailer weight' (ie towed weight), that is NOT affected by the pin weight as whether the gross weight of the trailer transfer any weight to the truck or not, the actual trailer weight will remain the same. The trailer axle however, will vary.
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