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  #21  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Gen1dak View Post
I love those people. Easier to outrun 'em.
Not always, some of them are pulling some great numbers. And yea how many of them are pulling good numbers, not many. I have seen like small V8's with a good 1200 HP and 1000ft-lbs on pump gas. But those engines are in cars that run in the mill of 1.5 Million bucks lol.
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  #22  
Old 05-30-2012, 01:41 AM
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Are you referencing the Bugatti Veyron?
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  #23  
Old 05-30-2012, 10:58 AM
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Are you referencing the Bugatti Veyron?
No sir, the Koenigsegg Agera R.
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  #24  
Old 05-30-2012, 01:56 PM
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Careful, you're making an arguement for more displacement, not less. While the Agera R has a small physical displacement (305 cubes), it has twin turbos that effectively increase displacement to around 750 cubic inches at full boost. No replacement for displacement, natural or artificially aspirated.
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  #25  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:06 PM
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Careful, you're making an arguement for more displacement, not less. While the Agera R has a small physical displacement (305 cubes), it has twin turbos that effectively increase displacement to around 750 cubic inches at full boost. No replacement for displacement, natural or artificially aspirated.
Well I was talking physical displacement, certainly if you put a turbo or two on a 318 you can get plenty of power. But the engine in the Agera R probably makes plenty of power without turbos. It's truly amazing how they can run pump gas in that engine.
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  #26  
Old 05-31-2012, 04:46 AM
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Weeeeell, not really THAT amazing. For one, that pump gas is 95 octane. Not quite racing gas, but better than what we can get, and the bio-fuel rating of around 110 depending on method of measurement. Two, it has to de-tune itself to a 940hp mode on said pump gas. Not knocking what they're doing, just some reality basing. High rpm HP with a torque peak north of 5,500 rpm? Take away the turbo's, and it's no more impressive than the 600hp pump gas V8's we make here, and that's on 92-93 octane. It's a fantastic car, but all the gee whiz power? Naaaahh. Not that astounding to me. Now, do that WITHOUT boost and I'll be impressed.

Last edited by Gen1dak; 05-31-2012 at 04:50 AM.
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  #27  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gen1dak View Post
Weeeeell, not really THAT amazing. For one, that pump gas is 95 octane. Not quite racing gas, but better than what we can get, and the bio-fuel rating of around 110 depending on method of measurement. Two, it has to de-tune itself to a 940hp mode on said pump gas. Not knocking what they're doing, just some reality basing. High rpm HP with a torque peak north of 5,500 rpm? Take away the turbo's, and it's no more impressive than the 600hp pump gas V8's we make here, and that's on 92-93 octane. It's a fantastic car, but all the gee whiz power? Naaaahh. Not that astounding to me. Now, do that WITHOUT boost and I'll be impressed.
Hey 600HP off a 302 displacement you have to admit is pretty respectable. Think about it, even in some of the older top fuel dragsters that have blown hemi's only getting about 800HP. I understand why they used turbo's because it's cheap HP. Thing is there original engines were based off ford's and volvo's which is ford in a nutshell. The 302 or 305 that's in the Agera R is I could say based off of a ford even though the entire engine is casted by a private company for Koeignsegg under Koeignsegg design.
I'm impressed that such a small engine is still getting 600HP. Still a fast car though!
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  #28  
Old 05-31-2012, 05:02 PM
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Dude, old top-fuel Hemis making 800hp? That was 50 years ago! And they were 331,354, and 392 Hemis. Don Garlits built his career on them from the mid-50's on until the 426 arrived (mid-60's), and then not without trying to blow one up out of frustration because he couldn't get it to run as well as his 392. (Turns out, the 426 liked a lot more initial timing (50 degrees), so when he cranked it up hoping it'd explode, it delivered him a new personal best speed. How's THAT for tuning savvy?!?!). They had crude diesel-powered school-bus superchargers to start with, zero-electronics, they read spark plugs to tune them, and camshafts really were justifiably called "bumpsticks". Cam tech was in its infancy. You're seriously gonna go there? I'd like to think they've learned SOMETHING since then. Case in point: that same basic setup (albeit larger physical displacement) has evolved to packages making somewhere between 8,500-10,000 HP now. They can't even measure it, they have to estimate. Kenny Bernstein used a WWII aircraft engine dyno to test/tune his engines in the early 90's when they were around the 4,000hp mark, but now that's not even in the ballpark. So no, not really that impressed. They're taking what a few years ago would've been strictly racing engines (yes, race engines. What other 4 cycle engines rev to nearly 8,000rpm -besides a Wankel?), now tamed by electronics, and building dream cars. I think it's great, but like I said, wanna impress me? Make 1100HP without the huffer, and keep it streetable, OR build the power they do with the present package, but at HALF the RPM. THAT would be impressive. So far all they've done is spend gobs of money just like Bugatti in a game of one-ups-manship, with money being no object, just bragging rights.

Okay, I got something for both of them and you. 1981. Chrysler M4S PPG Twin Turbo Interceptor. I4 2.2, twin turbo. 440HP! Top speed 195 mph. Let that sink in. 1981. 135 cubic inches. 440 HP. Now if you increase the size of that engine by 2 1/2 times you get right close to the Agera's actual displacement. Multiply 440HP 2.5 times. Hmmmm, that's 1100 HP. This car was an Indy Pace car and also in the movie with Charlie Sheen "The Wraith". The car was also used to develop the multi-hue paints by PPG. Mopar used them on LHS cars, etc, many years later. That's 30 years ago. I don't see much of an improvement. Yeah, there's some refinement, but power? Nothing new. It's just been long enough that nearly everyone has forgotten, so now it's all new again.
http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/...terceptor.html
http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/wraith-M4S.html
http://www.allpar.com/racing/joe-pappas-m4s.html
http://www.thewraithcar.com/

I'd love to see that car run around the track on Top Gear BBC with the Stig at the wheel!

Last edited by Gen1dak; 05-31-2012 at 05:06 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-31-2012, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen1dak View Post
Dude, old top-fuel Hemis making 800hp? That was 50 years ago! And they were 331,354, and 392 Hemis. Don Garlits built his career on them from the mid-50's on until the 426 arrived (mid-60's), and then not without trying to blow one up out of frustration because he couldn't get it to run as well as his 392. (Turns out, the 426 liked a lot more initial timing (50 degrees), so when he cranked it up hoping it'd explode, it delivered him a new personal best speed. How's THAT for tuning savvy?!?!). They had crude diesel-powered school-bus superchargers to start with, zero-electronics, they read spark plugs to tune them, and camshafts really were justifiably called "bumpsticks". Cam tech was in its infancy. You're seriously gonna go there? I'd like to think they've learned SOMETHING since then. Case in point: that same basic setup (albeit larger physical displacement) has evolved to packages making somewhere between 8,500-10,000 HP now. They can't even measure it, they have to estimate. Kenny Bernstein used a WWII aircraft engine dyno to test/tune his engines in the early 90's when they were around the 4,000hp mark, but now that's not even in the ballpark. So no, not really that impressed. They're taking what a few years ago would've been strictly racing engines (yes, race engines. What other 4 cycle engines rev to nearly 8,000rpm -besides a Wankel?), now tamed by electronics, and building dream cars. I think it's great, but like I said, wanna impress me? Make 1100HP without the huffer, and keep it streetable, OR build the power they do with the present package, but at HALF the RPM. THAT would be impressive. So far all they've done is spend gobs of money just like Bugatti in a game of one-ups-manship, with money being no object, just bragging rights.

Okay, I got something for both of them and you. 1981. Chrysler M4S PPG Twin Turbo Interceptor. I4 2.2, twin turbo. 440HP! Top speed 195 mph. Let that sink in. 1981. 135 cubic inches. 440 HP. Now if you increase the size of that engine by 2 1/2 times you get right close to the Agera's actual displacement. Multiply 440HP 2.5 times. Hmmmm, that's 1100 HP. This car was an Indy Pace car and also in the movie with Charlie Sheen "The Wraith". The car was also used to develop the multi-hue paints by PPG. Mopar used them on LHS cars, etc, many years later. That's 30 years ago. I don't see much of an improvement. Yeah, there's some refinement, but power? Nothing new. It's just been long enough that nearly everyone has forgotten, so now it's all new again.
http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/...terceptor.html
http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/wraith-M4S.html
http://www.allpar.com/racing/joe-pappas-m4s.html
http://www.thewraithcar.com/

I'd love to see that car run around the track on Top Gear BBC with the Stig at the wheel!
Well I did say older top fuel dragsters, I follow drag racing from the 50's to the 70's, I'm not to into the new drag racing. Personally I like fuel injection but at the same time I hate it because it can be very restricting. But anyway's putting 8000HP in a small sports car well isn't practical, besides the Agera R is a street legal car in the USA also, the car had been crash tested to be able to be registered in the USA and everything. But you are correct it's just bragging and making money off the richest of the rich. Thing is very few super rich people who collect cars actually know crap about them. I hate it when I see some rich smuck driving a car and he doesn't know a wheel stud from a lug nut basically.

But I like to experiment like most engineers and enthusiests do. The Agera R like most super cars, built for top speed and showing off thats about it. I hate Bugatti's, it's a way overrated car in my opinion.
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  #30  
Old 05-31-2012, 06:07 PM
Gen1dak Gen1dak is offline
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8000 HP in a sports car? Who suggested that? No comment on the Wraith? Sheeesh. I'm done.
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