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Recommended 5W-20 oil debate

25K views 132 replies 33 participants last post by  Thunderhorse 
#1 ·
I would like to start this thread to get input about something that I stumbled across on the internet. I don't what this to turn into a bitching match but think this is something that can be discussed and looked at. I like to keep my vehicles for long long time, and I do all the maintenance on all of them. Just to give you an Idea, my last Jeep Grand Cherokee is 14 years old, and still on the road and running strong. I do oil changes every 5600klm (3500miles) and I am running full synthetic. I know the book says 13000klm (8000 miles) or 6 months, whichever comes first, then the next one is 26000klm (16000 miles) or 1 year whichever comes first. Maybe I am spending more money on oil changes than I should but thats how I am, been doing it for the last 30 years. Sometimes hard to teach this old dog a new trick. That being said.

I Was doing some research on Motor oils and viscosity when I stumbled upon an article at a Amsoil Dealer website.

http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm

I thought it was an interesting read so I posted some of the info on another thread for others to comment. So I started looking more into this and found the following.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

http://www.synlube.com/sae5w-20.htm

These where pretty much indicating the same info but the read of the information was very informative.

I then did a google search on "5W-20 oil and Engine Longevity" And wow :SHOCKED: lots of stuff posted up.

I don't usually question engineers on why they put stuff like they do. but I have been in business for a long time and also understand how manufactures work to make things break at a certain time so they keep the receivables coming in, my sunbeam toaster from 1940 still works today and works well, I thought to buy a new one "top of the line" and in 2 years it was toast <---- get it, toast. Still using the 1940 Sunbeam to this day. So yes some of the stuff I am reading makes sense.

So all this being said, I am starting this thread to get opinions and insight on what you all's think. I will also be contacting Amsoil to get there opinion and will let you know what they say. At the end of the day, I can understand that people who will only keep there vehicles for a 3 year lease and return it to the dealer for the next new model don't need to address this topic as it will not affect you in any way, but for those who want to keep there trucks for a long long time, this is something interesting be it that its "do what the book says" or change your oil as per what you want to do with your truck. Hope this will get some interesting insights.

Thanks for taking the time to look and think about this. :smileup:
 
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#43 · (Edited)
It is interesting that some folks report issues with their MDS when using oil viscosity other than the 5w-20 and others report no issues. I would think if the MDS systems require 5w-20 evryone would experience problems when using something other than 5w-20. I am curious to know from those who have experienced problems, what kind of symptoms, issues occur?
 
#44 ·
As i mentioned earlier, i just had the
Check Engine Light came on
so i couldn't use the Remote Start

From what i understand, in Australia & New Zealand, they don't have 5w-20, but they do have 0w-20
Australia has temperatures that are much like Afghanistan, 130 - 140F in mid summer
 
#50 ·
Australia has temperatures that are much like Afghanistan, 130 - 140F in mid summer
In some areas, yes.

However, on the coastal areas, where something like almost 90 percent of the country's population resides, those type of numbers aren't common.

At least not for any prolonged periods.

And, if my memory serves me right, I believe both Castrol and Penrite [Australian owned] makes a 5W20 grade motor oil available in Australia.
 
#45 ·
Here is something interesting.

Ford released this

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article002367909.cfm?x=b11,0,w

I have been reading that in Europe, 5W-20 is not put in cars delivered in Europe, whether Crysler or Ram or ford etc, As for Fords vehicles all have other viscosity like 5W-30 and 40 when delivered to Europe, Actually, you presently can't get 5W-20 in Europe unless specially ordered.
Now If you read the article, it about Ford developing with BP corp a new 5W-20 oil that will be compliant with Europe Europe's ACEA C2 oil sequence which does not have North Americas ver of the 5W-20 as being compliant. Whats interesting in the article, Ford is quoted saying ""My key deliverable was that it offer no compromise on engine durability," to me its as if this new 5W-20 would not compromise engine durability like the North American Ver. Just my thoughts.
 
#46 · (Edited)
Another interesting thing, if you talk to a guy in the UK that has a Ram 1500, they only put 5W-30 and MDS works fine, no issues, they can't get 5W-20 there yet.

Here is from another forum in the UK

I drive a 2005 C with the 5.7 and I currently have about 204,000 kms. I have used both a "20" weight oil (0w20 and 5w20) and "30" weight oils (0w30 and 5w30) and have had ZERO issues with the MDS.

The MDS was not originally designed to work exclusively with a "20" weight oil, and will work just as well with a "30". Car manufacturers recommend "20" weight oils so that they can meet the CAFE standards relatively easily. A "20" will return slightly better mileage than a "30" weight oil, too small for the average consumer to even notice, but these small improvements multiplied over the entire production run of each company's products add up to real improvements.

If a "20" was the only oil capable of working with the MDS, these cars would never be sold in Europe where a "20" is not relatively easy to find, nor does it have an attractive price point for Chrysler's consumers. The Europeans have been using "30" weight oil with their MDS for what.....6 years now or so, and there are no issues with the MDS not working.

I figured if it's good enough for the same car to use regardless of which side of the pond it's on, I would use the "30" in the summer and the "20" in the winter and have been doing so without any problems for all this time and mileage.


I have been finding this at a few UK forums and all seem to say the same thing.

Others stipulate that the service book for European vehicles with the 5.7l with MDS stipulate 5W-30 recommended oil viscosity. Same car made in the US shipped to Europe??? hmmmm. that's interesting, be nice to see someone scan the page out of there manual about that.
 
#51 ·
Great reading here guys. Just curious, does the 4.7 and 6 cylinder Ram engines call for 5w20? I think the new 6 cylinder calls for 5w30. Maybe the Hemi MDS really does need 5w20 for optimal performance. Otherwise Ram would have went 5w30 throughout the line.
 
#53 ·
Asur-what email from the engineer. Your thread attachment is about the gas tank issue. Am I missing something? Probably am, but I read the entire thread you attached??
 
#55 ·
So what about those who turn off their MDS whether it be manually or via tune. Do these folks need to run 5W20, still?
 
#56 ·
Should be fine with 30 without MDS. how do you turn it off manually? I have a 2013 on the way and doubt tuners will be ready for a while...I don't like mds.
 
#57 ·
Run it in 5th gear every time you start it up.

Many here do it, though I don't. I always switch it off in city driving and only turn it back on during interstate travels.
 
#58 ·
Oh, and BTW, you need to update your profile as it still shows you're the proud owner of a Vehicle: 2007 Dodge Ram Sport 4x4.
 
#60 ·
Yeah well...the 13 is being built so I am still a proud owner of my 07 Sport QC 4x4. It's for sale...thought about selling it now but I really don't want to run around in my Challenger 392 all the time. She's a garage queen and gets out for hot dates or track time...
 
#62 ·
Asur-read the link regarding Chrysler engineer recommendation. I'm not sure I lend too much credibility to the email post...no full name. And, did the 2011 Ram have MDS? The poster showed having a 2011 Express?
 
#67 ·
I have told this story before. A couple of years back the oil light came on after about a thousand after the dealer had changed the oil, I checked the bill for the milage etc and I noticed that on the bill was 5-30 I phoned the dealer and they changed immediately. I have no knowledge if the reason for oil light was the wrong viscosity or not, to me the MDS had functioned as if the oil was 5-20 it may have been that guy doing the oil change wrote the viscosity down. Since then the light has come own when I have expected it. When I was up in Seattle more city driving 2500 3000 before the light coming on now down in N Cal long distance driving the light come on between 5-6000.
 
#70 ·
Found another Amsoil dealer posting this information about 5w-20 oil.

http://www.ultimatesyntheticoil.com/articles/ford5w20.htm

And another

http://www.enhancedsyntheticoil.com/5w20_Issue.htm
The problem with these articles as I see it, and I am an Amsoil user, is a couple things. They indicate it is safe to use 5w-30, that the only reason 5w-20 oil is indicated, is to meet govt fuel economy. But if it were really safe to use, why then are people who use 5w-30, reporting error codes and adverse functioning of the MDS? I get the meeting govt. mpg standards and it makes sense, but I am not convinced it is as ok to use 5w-30 as some of these articles indicate. Another issue I have is these articles repeatedly say "don't let the dealers scare you". it is not the dealers who mandate the viscosity rating, rather the manufacturer. My final issue is the creative referencing to Magnuson-Moss act where they will have the reader believe, the act prohibits manufacturers from specifying viscosity, not true. The act prohibits specifying a certain brand, not specific grade or viscosity and the manufacturer would be well within their rights to deny a warranty claim if their requirements are not met. A final observation, Chrysler offers a pretty generous warranty on the motors, so I find it hard to believe they would warrant the engines as they do, then specify an oil viscosity that would impact meeting at least the warranty.
 
#73 ·
This is for a 2012 Chrysler 300 with the 5.7L

Use API Certified SAE 5W-20 Engine Oil, meeting the requirements of
Chrysler Material Standard MS-6395. Refer to the engine oil fill cap for

correct SAE grade.

The 3.7 is 5w30 and the SRT8 is the following:

For best performance and maximum protection under all types of operating
conditions, the manufacturer only recommends full synthetic engine
oils that meet the American Petroleum Institute (API) categories of SM or
SM/CF. The manufacturer recommends the use of a full synthetic SAE​
0W-40 engine oil or equivalent
 
#74 ·
This is for a 2012 Chrysler 300 with the 5.7L

Use API Certified SAE 5W-20 Engine Oil, meeting the requirements of
Chrysler Material Standard MS-6395. Refer to the engine oil fill cap for

correct SAE grade.

The 3.7 is 5w30 and the SRT8 is the following:

For best performance and maximum protection under all types of operating
conditions, the manufacturer only recommends full synthetic engine
oils that meet the American Petroleum Institute (API) categories of SM or
SM/CF. The manufacturer recommends the use of a full synthetic SAE​
0W-40 engine oil or equivalent
Is this off a European Chrysler 300 or American?
 
#77 ·
I have worked in the automotive world for quite a few years and have come to trust the decisions that they make. There is a separate group of people (quality engineers) that make sure that the interest of the customer is best suited.

Through the use of Dfmea (Design Failure Mode Analysis), and Pfmea (Process Failure Mode Analysis) processes the engineering groups and the quality groups come up with a design that is reliable and can be manufactured with the least amount of errors, and a product that will produce the least amount of trouble or hassle for the customer.

By using these tools an RPN(Risk Priority Number) number is assigned to each and every step in the manufacturing and design of each and every part. The team will then go through all of their testing data (including long term)and formulate corrective actions for any RPN that is higher than their set level.

I am confident that if they went through the trouble of changing the documentation, and making costs at dealerships and their truck factories higher (higher cost from having to stock two different grades of oil) that they had a very good reason. No manufacturer will design anything that will only last through the warranty period. That is not how things are engineered.

I will assure you that an early production new redesign model will have higher quality pieces than a model that has been out for a few years. Once a product has gone through the fmea process it then goes into "cost reduction" mode. At this point engineering and quality will work to lower the cost and maintain or increase the repeatability of their products. They cannot, or will not change anything that will negatively affect the integrity of their product. You may get cheaper tires that have the same overall specifications. Maybe a cheaper headlight switch made by a lower bidder to their strict specifications. None of these should directly affect their product.

Also, all non-self-manufactured product must go through a very stringent PPAP (Product Part Approval Process) process that requires the manufacturer to provide documentation and proof that they can accurately and reliably produce the same product at all times. You are much less likely to receive a batch of parts that work better than the previous batch.

No changes are made without reason in the automotive world, they have way too much liability to make silly changes. The automotive industry has improved leaps and bounds over the past 10 years from a quality and repeatability standpoint. I trust that if the manufacturer states that their could be an issue using a certain grade of oil that they have done their research and thrown 100s of thousands of dollars to validate that claim
 
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