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  #21  
Old 02-21-2012, 08:57 PM
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^^I'm with snrusnak, I require proof myself but I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt as well. I know what DOS is and Cyanogen is a rooted distribution for Android. Maybe he took a different approach, hit the nail on the head and VROOOOOOM! We are off to the races! But if he didn't and that would suck Green Donkey B#%s if it is, but oh well. We will all know soon enough.
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  #22  
Old 02-21-2012, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrusnak View Post
I agree but just didn't want to be a dick lol. I'd like to see some sort of proof as well before I believe it...
I too am with you Sean. I didn't want to chime in and sound like a dick. Afterall, half of what I say on here makes me sound like an a$$ as it can be misconstrued..lol WE want some proof man,, hope your not pullin our chain here..lol
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  #23  
Old 02-21-2012, 09:15 PM
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Subscribed to this thread! I am interested in seeing how this goes. I'm a seeing is believing type of person and once I see something in a vid that proves his code breaking skills my blood pressure will rise in excitement to see that some progress is being made for tuning these mo-fo's.
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  #24  
Old 02-22-2012, 05:58 AM
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Subscribed, I want to be one of the first to talk to the man who changes the history of sport tuning the 2011 and up Chrysler products and tell people that he's a smart cookie and I know a rich person and, I just spanked that Camaro SS's ass because of this dude and, and, and All I want to say in the end of this is...



Please don't let us down!!!!
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  #25  
Old 02-22-2012, 12:29 PM
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i'm sure we'll see something by EOY
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  #26  
Old 02-22-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironsides View Post
People are actually believing 22Dasher? Seriously?
and Cyanogenmod, which he couldn't even spell correctly, is just an Android distribution.
Once I heard him say something about CM7 (Cyanogen) i started laughing.





Anyone that could have cracked the code should have gone right to DS/Superchips and started a bidding war. The guy DS has working on all their cracked/encoding stuff is a freaking genious that started in the LSX world. He was good friends with the mechanic at my old shop and when i talked to him about it even he said it took him months to get through the encryption
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  #27  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:02 PM
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I am a software developer (electrical engineer by training) who's been involved in a lot of PC and embedded projects over the years. Perhaps I can shed some light on what's going on with these tuners. First some background...

An encryption system in its most basic flavor relies on two things: an encrypted payload that usually looks like random scrambled characters and a key that can be used to decrypt it. It can get quite a bit more complex but those two elements always exist. The key can be a number of things...it might be a password that's in your head (like in the case of encrypting your hard drive) or a large string of numbers stored somewhere else (like in the case of online banking) or even something completely random.

Since encryption algorithms are generally known and published, the encrypted payload can theoretically be descrambled mathematically without knowing the key. The reason encryption is effective is simply that the math problem is hard and it takes a very, very long time to solve, even for a computer. Having the key fills in one of the variables and makes the problem trivial to solve. Barring a huge leap in computer technology or mathematics (especially prime numbers) the encrypted data is safe unless the attacker has the key.

The challenge here likely has nothing to do with breaking the encryption. That's not realistic or even necessary. The PCM code may be encrypted but the truck sitting in your driveway already knows how to decrypt that code. It must or it couldn't use the code either. Each of our trucks already has both the key and the decryption code in it. The trick is to find it.

(For what it's worth the situation is similar to DVD movies. They are distributed encrypted but, of course, your DVD player must know how to decrypt them or they're useless. So between the DVD and the DVD player one or the other has the key. And it's all over the Internet now too.)

The challenges they're facing are probably:

1. Finding the key. It could theoretically be on any connected piece of silicon in the truck. And it's not like there's a comment that says "KEY STARTS HERE"...it'll probably look very similar to the encrypted code itself. There may be multiple.

2. Identifying the encryption algorithm. Usually not hard since you probably had to decompile the loader routines to locate the key(s) anyway. Sometimes you get lucky with trial and error. Other times they've done something homegrown and you have to implement it line by line.

3. Dealing with the fact that each of our trucks probably has a different key. If I were designing the system for maximum security I'd do that and make sure whatever component held the key was electrically isolated from the OBDII port. That would make it very difficult to create a universal programmer that was convenient for the end user (read: marketable).

(Does anyone know how the dealer flashes our trucks? Via a cable to that port? Or do they remove the unit and plug it in to something else? That process would be similar to what a tuner would have to do.)

4. Getting the lawyers to approve it. It's kind of a gray area but the DMCA has been used to prosecute people for subverting encrypted systems. The argument would be that Chrysler wrote the PCM code and encrypted it (in part) to prevent theft of trade secrets by other automakers. Producing and marketing a device that can decrypt that code as a tuner would have to do would probably violate Chrysler's rights under the DMCA. The law that protects Chrysler's IP might inadvertently prevent you from tuning your truck.


As I understand it there actually is case law around #4 from when Apple started encrypting their BIOS code a number of years ago. I don't know a whole lot about it but I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason why you still can't legally buy a commercial product that lets you run MacOS on your PC.

Issues #1 and #2 above are completely solvable by someone with the right tools, knowledge, time and a Dodge truck. My guess is that #3 and #4 are the real challenges...trying to package something that's fit for the end consumer and keeping Chrysler from suing you. After all if they didn't mind trucks under warranty being tuned then they wouldn't have bothered encrypting it in the first place.

My bet is we'll see something right about 2015 when the 2012s start going out of warranty.

Last edited by dixiejwo; 02-22-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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  #28  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:09 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to share your insight!
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  #29  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:12 PM
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Very good information, thanks!
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  #30  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dixiejwo View Post
I am a software developer (electrical engineer by training) who's been involved in a lot of PC and embedded projects over the years. Perhaps I can shed some light on what's going on with these tuners. First some background...

An encryption system in its most basic flavor relies on two things: an encrypted payload that usually looks like random scrambled characters and a key that can be used to decrypt it. It can get quite a bit more complex but those two elements always exist. The key can be a number of things...it might be a password that's in your head (like in the case of encrypting your hard drive) or a large string of numbers stored somewhere else (like in the case of online banking) or even something completely random.

Since encryption algorithms are generally known and published, the encrypted payload can theoretically be descrambled mathematically without knowing the key. The reason encryption is effective is simply that the math problem is hard and it takes a very, very long time to solve, even for a computer. Having the key fills in one of the variables and makes the problem trivial to solve. Barring a huge leap in computer technology or mathematics (especially prime numbers) the encrypted data is safe unless the attacker has the key.

The challenge here likely has nothing to do with breaking the encryption. That's not realistic or even necessary. The PCM code may be encrypted but the truck sitting in your driveway already knows how to decrypt that code. It must or it couldn't use the code either. Each of our trucks already has both the key and the decryption code in it. The trick is to find it.

(For what it's worth the situation is similar to DVD movies. They are distributed encrypted but, of course, your DVD player must know how to decrypt them or they're useless. So between the DVD and the DVD player one or the other has the key. And it's all over the Internet now too.)

The challenges they're facing are probably:

1. Finding the key. It could theoretically be on any connected piece of silicon in the truck. And it's not like there's a comment that says "KEY STARTS HERE"...it'll probably look very similar to the encrypted code itself. There may be multiple.

2. Identifying the encryption algorithm. Usually not hard since you probably had to decompile the loader routines to locate the key(s) anyway. Sometimes you get lucky with trial and error. Other times they've done something homegrown and you have to implement it line by line.

3. Dealing with the fact that each of our trucks probably has a different key. If I were designing the system for maximum security I'd do that and make sure whatever component held the key was electrically isolated from the OBDII port. That would make it very difficult to create a universal programmer that was convenient for the end user (read: marketable).

(Does anyone know how the dealer flashes our trucks? Via a cable to that port? Or do they remove the unit and plug it in to something else? That process would be similar to what a tuner would have to do.)

4. Getting the lawyers to approve it. It's kind of a gray area but the DMCA has been used to prosecute people for subverting encrypted systems. The argument would be that Chrysler wrote the PCM code and encrypted it (in part) to prevent theft of trade secrets by other automakers. Producing and marketing a device that can decrypt that code as a tuner would have to do would probably violate Chrysler's rights under the DMCA. The law that protects Chrysler's IP might inadvertently prevent you from tuning your truck.


As I understand it there actually is case law around #4 from when Apple started encrypting their BIOS code a number of years ago. I don't know a whole lot about it but I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason why you still can't legally buy a commercial product that lets you run MacOS on your PC.

Issues #1 and #2 above are completely solvable by someone with the right tools, knowledge, time and a Dodge truck. My guess is that #3 and #4 are the real challenges...trying to package something that's fit for the end consumer and keeping Chrysler from suing you. After all if they didn't mind trucks under warranty being tuned then they wouldn't have bothered encrypting it in the first place.

My bet is we'll see something right about 2015 when the 2012s start going out of warranty.

I think my little brain just exploded! Good info though...
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