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  #11  
Old 04-03-2013, 01:44 PM
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I completely understand GVW, GCVW, etc. I had a trucking company. This does not factor in between these two vehicles other than what I have listed above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTyankee View Post
it all has to do with Curb Weight, empty vehicle
Wheel & tire weight
Bumper weight
radio weight
seat weight

The more the weight of an empty vehicle, the less it can tow or haul
17 inch tires are lighter then 20"
aluminum is lighter then steel
etc.

Yes, mine does. I have the tow package with the trailer brake controller and all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ONOutdoorsman View Post
Does the R/T have the heavy duty oil and tranny cooler?

True, a higher stall converter is not as good for towing but we are not talking about a high enough stall here to warrant an ~4000 lb difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrusnak View Post
It's the higher stall rpm on the torque converter. Higher stall rpm causes more heat build up, especially when under load.

If you buy an aftermarket high stall TC the manufacturer will advise you not to tow.
I am very curious what is different about the transmissions, AND, why is the R/T (Sport) transmission is cheaper. ?????

David
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:52 PM
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The transmission point is very interesting. Subscribing to this thread, maybe Ramtech or somebody can chime in who might have the knowledge, or service manuals to be able to tell the difference.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRCM View Post
Typically, a performance truck (or car for that matter) from the factory with a lower then standard suspension will have a lower towing capacity due to the reduced suspension travel.

The load rating for the cargo may be the same or close, but the towing capacity is where the suspension travel really comes into play, and that is where the reduction is.

The springs may be able to support the same weight, but since the suspension travel is less due to the lowered stance, the chance of bottoming out is much greater.

Let's say for every 1000 lbs, the springs compress 1".....well, since your truck is already lowered 2", then a 1000 lbs load will be the same in your truck as a 3000 lb load on a non-sport truck, and much closer to damage from bottoming the suspension out.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:40 PM
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But, if this is based off of tongue weight then it itoes not make sense since they both have similar gvw ratings. The trailer weight on its axles has no corresponding value with the tongue weight.

IE: If you have a 10k trailer with 1k tongue weight it will have the same action on the rear springs as a 5k trailer with a 1k tongue weight.

So, I see the slight difference in gvw based on the lowering springs, but it doesn't account for the 4k difference.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TRCM View Post
The load rating for the cargo may be the same or close, but the towing capacity is where the suspension travel really comes into play, and that is where the reduction is.

The springs may be able to support the same weight, but since the suspension travel is less due to the lowered stance, the chance of bottoming out is much greater.

Let's say for every 1000 lbs, the springs compress 1".....well, since your truck is already lowered 2", then a 1000 lbs load will be the same in your truck as a 3000 lb load on a non-sport truck, and much closer to damage from bottoming the suspension out.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:46 PM
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It is the TC. Yes it's only a roughly 400-600 rpm higher stall but that is pretty significant. Most TC manufacturers say that if you tow not to get a TC over a 2400-2600 stall. The RT stall is a 2600 rpm stall. Most TC manufacturers will also tell you that if you get a 2800+ stall that you basically shouldn't tow at all.

I have RT rear springs on my quad cab that I cut to lower the rear an inch and although travel and capacity is reduced I still can haul and tow a lot. I've reduced my payload from roughly 1,700lb stock to about 1,000 lb with these cut springs. I don't know what my new towing limit is as I haven't reached it but I have towed about 4,000lb no problem. Stock capacity for my truck IIRC is ~6,500lb towing capacity. I also have a 2800 stall converter.

You can realistically still tow 5,000+ lb with an RT, just need to keep an eye on your transmission temps. They will rise very rapidly with the high stall converter at times of heavy load like up a long steep grade. My buddy has a 2011 RT bone stock and he tows his boat all the time and IIRC it's over 7,000 lb.

The RT actually is not lower either, we compared our trucks(stock at that time) and his RT was taller both front and rear than mine. The RT has a progressive rate spring but it isn't lower.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriSum View Post
But, if this is based off of tongue weight then it itoes not make sense since they both have similar gvw ratings. The trailer weight on its axles has no corresponding value with the tongue weight.

IE: If you have a 10k trailer with 1k tongue weight it will have the same action on the rear springs as a 5k trailer with a 1k tongue weight.

So, I see the slight difference in gvw based on the lowering springs, but it doesn't account for the 4k difference.

Well, trailer weight on its axles DOES have a corresponding value with the tongue weight, as tongue weight is a percentage of the total weight. If you don't have the tongue weight set up correctly, you will have all kinds of towing issues.

And I haven't looked up the numbers, but in your 1st sentence you say they have "similar gvw ratings", but in the last sentence, you claim they have a 4k difference. Are we talking about the same thing in both sentences ?

All I can say for sure, is when I had a vehicle with a 'sport' suspension, it's towing capacity was 50% of what it would have been without the sport suspension, and it was due to the lack of adequate wheel travel before bottoming the suspension if you went over bumps while towing, not the ability of the spring to handle the weight.

There is more to it than just the suspension tho. Don't forget, along with the different suspension, you likely have a different shock, with different valving, which also plays an important part in how the suspension works (as in it keeps it from continuing to cycle once it starts).

And your example is not 100 % correct. It IS correct when you are sitting still, but when moving, the actual forces the trucks feels from the trailer weight varies with terrain and speed/direction of travel.

Not sure how else to explain it, so let's assume for a second, that a non-sport truck has 12" of suspension travel max built into them to allow them to carry their rated load safely under all terrain conditions before something breaks. Let's also say that this means the truck can squat 6" from stock unloaded height before it bottoms out, and can rise 6" (again, from stock unloaded height), before it pulls something apart.

On my truck, a 1000 lb tongue weight makes it sit lower in the rear ~ 3" even with a WD hitch properly adjusted. So, when I am towing that 1000 lb tongue weight on my truck, the 6" of squat travel designed into it is now cut down to 3", and if I had a sport suspension, which is lowered from the factory ~2", then you'd only have 1" of down travel to safely control the weight without bottoming out and breaking something.

1" goes away very fast when you hit a bump and the suspension is compressed to absorb it. You would be surprised at just how far your suspension does move when hitting even a small bump if you could watch it in slow motion.


Anyway, just reciting what I was told when I asked many years ago, and it makes sense if you realize a springs ability to support a given amount of weight and it's ability to control it's movement during the cycling action the suspension sees when driving are not even close to the same thing.

That is why you have shocks......the springs support the weight just fine, but once it gets to cycling, the shock is what prevents it from continuing to cycle and limits the duration and to some degree the amount of travel cycled.

Even if your truck indeed sits the same height, the progressive springs rates can also give the same effect, as a 150 lb/inch spring will control a load a lot differently when compared to a progressive rate spring that may be rated 100 lbs/inch for the first 2" of travel, 125 lb/inch for the 2nd 2" of travel, and then 150 lbs/inch after that. In this case, the progressive spring will not control the load nearly as well during the first 4" of travel, resulting in a more unstable condition.

Ever drive an unloaded dually ? not a very smooth ride....but put some weight on it, and it smooths out. This is because the springs are rated to carry a load, and that tends to make them not so soft for a nice unloaded ride.




And a 500 rpm or so difference in convertor stall speed is a huge difference in terms of heat generation.
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  #17  
Old 04-04-2013, 02:46 PM
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I understand exactly what you are saying. I was typing on my phone trying to make my answer as short as possible with my previous post. Sorry !!

My point was trying to illustrate that the trucks themselves have very similar GVW's: Express 1493 lbs and the Sport with 1412 lbs. (This weight takes into account tongue weight.) So with an Express they say you can carry 81 more pounds in/on the back of the truck more than the Sport, yet you can "pull", (GCVW) 4000 more pounds with the express.

With what you are saying, they are acounting for 4000 lbs worth of suspension travel in the rear suspension. I don't buy it, I'm sure some of this would be true, but not 4000 lbs. You are still talking about an 81 lb difference in GVW.

So again, my example, all done for simplicity:

Tag, triple axle, steel I beam trailer weighs 5000 lbs with a 1000 lb tongue weight empty. = 1000 lbs added to my GVW, (on the truck), and pulling the leftover 4000 lbs behind me.

With my R/T, I can load my 1000 lb atv on the trailer and I am maxed out at 5000 lbs, (4000 lb trailer and 1000 lb atv = 5000 lbs), due to my GCVW even though I am still under my GVW.

Now with my Express, (hypothetical), I can load my 1000 lb atv, and my 4000 lb Jeep before I am maxed out due to my GCVW, (4000 lb trailer, 1000 lb atv and 4000 lb Jeep =9000 lbs). By loading my equipment correctly I am still able to keep around 10% on the tongue and stay at 1000 lb Tongue weight.

You are saying that additional 4000 lbs is because my suspension on the R/T will have more movement up and down and that is why they limit it, yet RAM is saying there is only an 81 lb difference in what the trucks can carry on their rear axles, which takes into account rear suspension movement.

I'm not saying that anyone is wrong, this is all debatable and without having an engineer here from RAM to say exactly why it is why it is then who knows.

My whole point with this post was that I just thought a 4000 lb difference was quite substantial when you take into account the factors of GVW of the two trucks. If it was a 1500-2000 lb difference in GCVW I would not even have questioned it due to the suspension and torque converter, BUT 4000 lbs is a HUGE difference. That's all.

Have a good day. I'm going to load my 25 lb dog and go to the beach.

David



Quote:
Originally Posted by TRCM View Post
Well, trailer weight on its axles DOES have a corresponding value with the tongue weight, as tongue weight is a percentage of the total weight. If you don't have the tongue weight set up correctly, you will have all kinds of towing issues.

And I haven't looked up the numbers, but in your 1st sentence you say they have "similar gvw ratings", but in the last sentence, you claim they have a 4k difference. Are we talking about the same thing in both sentences ?

All I can say for sure, is when I had a vehicle with a 'sport' suspension, it's towing capacity was 50% of what it would have been without the sport suspension, and it was due to the lack of adequate wheel travel before bottoming the suspension if you went over bumps while towing, not the ability of the spring to handle the weight.

There is more to it than just the suspension tho. Don't forget, along with the different suspension, you likely have a different shock, with different valving, which also plays an important part in how the suspension works (as in it keeps it from continuing to cycle once it starts).

And your example is not 100 % correct. It IS correct when you are sitting still, but when moving, the actual forces the trucks feels from the trailer weight varies with terrain and speed/direction of travel.

Not sure how else to explain it, so let's assume for a second, that a non-sport truck has 12" of suspension travel max built into them to allow them to carry their rated load safely under all terrain conditions before something breaks. Let's also say that this means the truck can squat 6" from stock unloaded height before it bottoms out, and can rise 6" (again, from stock unloaded height), before it pulls something apart.

On my truck, a 1000 lb tongue weight makes it sit lower in the rear ~ 3" even with a WD hitch properly adjusted. So, when I am towing that 1000 lb tongue weight on my truck, the 6" of squat travel designed into it is now cut down to 3", and if I had a sport suspension, which is lowered from the factory ~2", then you'd only have 1" of down travel to safely control the weight without bottoming out and breaking something.

1" goes away very fast when you hit a bump and the suspension is compressed to absorb it. You would be surprised at just how far your suspension does move when hitting even a small bump if you could watch it in slow motion.


Anyway, just reciting what I was told when I asked many years ago, and it makes sense if you realize a springs ability to support a given amount of weight and it's ability to control it's movement during the cycling action the suspension sees when driving are not even close to the same thing.

That is why you have shocks......the springs support the weight just fine, but once it gets to cycling, the shock is what prevents it from continuing to cycle and limits the duration and to some degree the amount of travel cycled.

Even if your truck indeed sits the same height, the progressive springs rates can also give the same effect, as a 150 lb/inch spring will control a load a lot differently when compared to a progressive rate spring that may be rated 100 lbs/inch for the first 2" of travel, 125 lb/inch for the 2nd 2" of travel, and then 150 lbs/inch after that. In this case, the progressive spring will not control the load nearly as well during the first 4" of travel, resulting in a more unstable condition.

Ever drive an unloaded dually ? not a very smooth ride....but put some weight on it, and it smooths out. This is because the springs are rated to carry a load, and that tends to make them not so soft for a nice unloaded ride.
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriSum View Post
I understand exactly what you are saying. I was typing on my phone trying to make my answer as short as possible with my previous post. Sorry !!

My point was trying to illustrate that the trucks themselves have very similar GVW's: Express 1493 lbs and the Sport with 1412 lbs. (This weight takes into account tongue weight.) So with an Express they say you can carry 81 more pounds in/on the back of the truck more than the Sport, yet you can "pull", (GCVW) 4000 more pounds with the express.

With what you are saying, they are acounting for 4000 lbs worth of suspension travel in the rear suspension. I don't buy it, I'm sure some of this would be true, but not 4000 lbs. You are still talking about an 81 lb difference in GVW.

So again, my example, all done for simplicity:

Tag, triple axle, steel I beam trailer weighs 5000 lbs with a 1000 lb tongue weight empty. = 1000 lbs added to my GVW, (on the truck), and pulling the leftover 4000 lbs behind me.

With my R/T, I can load my 1000 lb atv on the trailer and I am maxed out at 5000 lbs, (4000 lb trailer and 1000 lb atv = 5000 lbs), due to my GCVW even though I am still under my GVW.

Now with my Express, (hypothetical), I can load my 1000 lb atv, and my 4000 lb Jeep before I am maxed out due to my GCVW, (4000 lb trailer, 1000 lb atv and 4000 lb Jeep =9000 lbs). By loading my equipment correctly I am still able to keep around 10% on the tongue and stay at 1000 lb Tongue weight.

You are saying that additional 4000 lbs is because my suspension on the R/T will have more movement up and down and that is why they limit it, yet RAM is saying there is only an 81 lb difference in what the trucks can carry on their rear axles, which takes into account rear suspension movement.

I'm not saying that anyone is wrong, this is all debatable and without having an engineer here from RAM to say exactly why it is why it is then who knows.

My whole point with this post was that I just thought a 4000 lb difference was quite substantial when you take into account the factors of GVW of the two trucks. If it was a 1500-2000 lb difference in GCVW I would not even have questioned it due to the suspension and torque converter, BUT 4000 lbs is a HUGE difference. That's all.

Have a good day. I'm going to load my 25 lb dog and go to the beach.

David
The bolded statement is not uncommon at all, on ANY truck. On my 97 Dodge dually CTD 4x4, I could easily load my gooseneck trailer and max out the GCVWR before I maxed out the GVWR.

The two ratings are for different things and just because 1 has the same rating on a certain model doesn't mean the other one will.

The load in the truck is vertically over the rear axle, whereas the trailer is vertically about 4' behind the rear axle, which also changes the dynamic and static load ratings due to the added leverage. And don't forget, any load in the bed or in the truck is attached there and will not move around, but a trailer does move, and in doing so, it changes the dynamic loading on the trucks suspension a lot.


And actually, I'm saying your suspension may have less movement available before damage occurs, not more.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:28 PM
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I understand and agree, just not 4000 lbs worth of difference.

David

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRCM View Post
The bolded statement is not uncommon at all, on ANY truck. On my 97 Dodge dually CTD 4x4, I could easily load my gooseneck trailer and max out the GCVWR before I maxed out the GVWR.

The two ratings are for different things and just because 1 has the same rating on a certain model doesn't mean the other one will.

The load in the truck is vertically over the rear axle, whereas the trailer is vertically about 4' behind the rear axle, which also changes the dynamic and static load ratings due to the added leverage. And don't forget, any load in the bed or in the truck is attached there and will not move around, but a trailer does move, and in doing so, it changes the dynamic loading on the trucks suspension a lot.


And actually, I'm saying your suspension may have less movement available before damage occurs, not more.
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