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  #1  
Old 08-01-2013, 08:44 PM
Biz8888 Biz8888 is offline
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Default Eco Diesel - Not so much.

Here is a couple articles that bring into question the economics of the modern Diesel. Does it really make economic sense?


http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/07/e...d-performance/

http://ericpetersautos.com/2011/08/1...-in-the-woods/
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:12 PM
Astartes Astartes is offline
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ill just find a mod and a tuner that lets my eco diesel bellow out black smoke whenever the hell it wants, lol.
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:36 AM
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At one time EPA decisions were made by scientist, now by politicians. They have made it almost impossible for diesels to exist with the Tier 4F requirements. You can Google that to see what it is all about but it includes diesels engines all the way down to 25 HP small tractors). What really makes me mad is that rail and marine diesels got a pass and do not need to meet Tier 4F requirements.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:39 AM
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The economic case for diesel use to be a no-brainer provided you could live with the noise, smoke and smell. Lately, the latter three have been eliminated with the economic case being clouded (heh...).

Basically, the case for diesel still comes down to:

-Economy
-Longevity
-Power

It isn't for short commutes (even pre-DPF/DEF).
It isn't for the occasional driver.
It isn't for those that don't care about maintenance.

Both articles make good points but are incorrect in a few areas. Yes, the diesels of yesteryear did have better economy. However, they didn't need to power vehicles that meet the safety requirements that modern vehicles not need to meet. Vehicles have gotten heavier and more powerful as time marched on. Economy has no way to go but down with those pressures.

Secondly, DEF (urea) isn't pee (urea is a component of pee but not the only one...). DEF actually increases economy by allowing the engine to run more free as the DEF takes care of the emissions down stream. Exhibit A for this is the Jetta/Passat comparison. The Jetta Manual gets 30/42. The Passat Manual, a bigger, heavier car with the same engine gets 30/43. The difference? The Passat uses DEF while the Jetta uses the DPF.

It comes down to if you are a long distance runner that needs power and the vehicle to last, diesel is still the default choice. Hybrids are good for short distance commuters in the city but diesels still rule on the highway.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:55 AM
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After looking at the rest of the Eric Peters site, it seems the gentleman is uninformed or ignorant of many things auto related despite talking a good game. (Olds diesel was a converted gasser? I don't think so Tim...).
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:40 AM
udontknowjack udontknowjack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spp View Post
The economic case for diesel use to be a no-brainer provided you could live with the noise, smoke and smell. Lately, the latter three have been eliminated with the economic case being clouded (heh...).

Basically, the case for diesel still comes down to:

-Economy
-Longevity
-Power

It isn't for short commutes (even pre-DPF/DEF).
It isn't for the occasional driver.
It isn't for those that don't care about maintenance.

Both articles make good points but are incorrect in a few areas. Yes, the
diesels of yesteryear did have better economy. However, they didn't need to power vehicles that meet the safety requirements that modern vehicles not need to meet. Vehicles have gotten heavier and more powerful as time marched on. Economy has no way to go but down with those pressures.

Secondly, DEF (urea) isn't pee (urea is a component of pee but not the only one...). DEF actually increases economy by allowing the engine to run more free as the DEF takes care of the emissions down stream. Exhibit A for this is the Jetta/Passat comparison. The Jetta Manual gets 30/42. The Passat Manual, a bigger, heavier car with the same engine gets 30/43. The difference? The Passat uses DEF while the Jetta uses the DPF.

It comes down to if you are a long distance runner that needs power and the vehicle to last, diesel is still the default choice. Hybrids are good for short
distance commuters in the city but diesels still rule on the highway.
Thank you, couldn't be agree with u more.
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster5601 View Post
What really makes me mad is that rail and marine diesels got a pass and do not need to meet Tier 4F requirements.
There are currently Locomotives testing in the field from EMD and GE for the upcoming Tier 4 emission standards which take effect 1/1/2015. Marine is not exempt either. Both may be slightly different but are in no way exempt from fairly strict regulation. Rebuilt engines also have to meet higher tier standards than when new. When's the last time you got your vehicle worked on and they added emission equipment?
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:32 PM
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sorry SPP the Olds diesel was in fact a converted gasoline engine. It was lame but it was a diesel. I have heard from a guy that works in our research lab that he wouldn't touch the eco diesel unless he traveled a good 30 minutes each way to work and planned to tow often. There are many issues that make the ED a poor choice as a daily short run driver, but some here seem to think they know more than our tech guys do. Now I said this earlier and got flamed so do what makes you happy, I am buying the Hemi.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster5601 View Post
At one time EPA decisions were made by scientist, now by politicians. They have made it almost impossible for diesels to exist with the Tier 4F requirements. You can Google that to see what it is all about but it includes diesels engines all the way down to 25 HP small tractors). What really makes me mad is that rail and marine diesels got a pass and do not need to meet Tier 4F requirements.
+! Sad but true and too damn bad.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:55 AM
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As for tier four, all Diesels, from giant down to 22hp air compressors need to meet the regs.

It's really not that big of a deal, a mud pump that I work on has a Detroit series 60, 14 liter with 675hp and it has no issues, and it's DPF is the size of a small water heater though... LOL
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