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  #11  
Old 09-12-2013, 09:08 AM
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OK I may be dense here, if not dense then I'm certainly a little slow.

What is the difference between the E85 that is created for use in flex fuel vehicles and this E15 that is mentioned above? I was thinking that they both meant that 15% of ethanol was added to the gas.

What am I missing here? How can E85 cause problems in the HEMI, but the E15 wouldn't?


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  #12  
Old 09-12-2013, 09:24 AM
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Ethanol has a higher octane than gas, but less energy density. Plus, it can only be derived (currently) from plants that have high enough sugar content, and all of those are food grade plants. that in istelf should be the first clue not to use it.

That being said, once the genome is cracked for producing cellulosic ethanol, and it becomes competitive in price with the gas for the loss of mileage, I'll be on board with it. Provided the market is left to decide fuel cost.
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  #13  
Old 09-12-2013, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excoastie View Post
OK I may be dense here, if not dense then I'm certainly a little slow.

What is the difference between the E85 that is created for use in flex fuel vehicles and this E15 that is mentioned above? I was thinking that they both meant that 15% of ethanol was added to the gas.

What am I missing here? How can E85 cause problems in the HEMI, but the E15 wouldn't?


Exco

the E rating is the level of ethanol in the gas. E15 is 15% ethanol which is marginal at best for older vehicles. E85 is 85% ethanol and is bad news for vehicles not specially designed, or modified to accept it.

Ethanol is a hell of a solvent. It will turn rubber lines to jelly, and it will dissolve the seals in the fuel systems of older vehicles.

Retrofitting older cars to use it (E85) isn't that complicated however. replace the fuel pump, lines, injectors pretty much takes care of it. The vehicle also needs to be reprogrammed to account for it though. the fuel pump and injectors have to be a higher capacity than stock because you need more fuel flow since ethanol doesn't have as much energy per unit volume.
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  #14  
Old 09-12-2013, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excoastie View Post
OK I may be dense here, if not dense then I'm certainly a little slow.

What is the difference between the E85 that is created for use in flex fuel vehicles and this E15 that is mentioned above? I was thinking that they both meant that 15% of ethanol was added to the gas.

What am I missing here? How can E85 cause problems in the HEMI, but the E15 wouldn't?


Exco
E85 is 85% ethanol and E15 is 15% ethanol. Huge difference.

Ethanol is grain alcohol which is much different than straight gasoline so engines that are not flex-fuel will not like E85 and can cause damage to the engine. Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline, hence worse fuel mileage. E85 is cheaper but with the drop in fuel mileage, there is no advantage of running it really.
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Old 09-12-2013, 10:16 AM
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Again The Hemi is not E85 compliant, the 4.7 and 3.6 are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #16  
Old 09-12-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crabjoe View Post
I hate Ethanol in my gas, but can you please tell me how using gas w/Ethanol will destroy a marine engine?

All modern marine engines use hoses and such which are suppose to work fine with Ethanol. The only thing I know of that Ethanol laced gas does is phase separate, can attract moister, clean gunk from older systems, and eat fiberglass fuel tanks (Old Bertrams had fiberglass fuel tanks).

When E10 1st started appearing, in my boat, all I had to do was replace my rubber hoses with something that was safe for E10. I also had to replace my fuel filter more frequently, for a bit of time, because the Ethanol was cleaning my fuel tank of gunk that had accumulated over the years. Outside of that, never had any issues...

Still.. I want Ethanol out of gas!! It's killing the fuel economy in my cars... In a boat, I can't tell because the fuel mileage sux, and weather/water conditions vary to much to get a consistent reading, for a given speed and/or distance.
From an article I was reading:

E10 only, not E15, for your boat!
We still don’t know how and when E15 will be offered for sale, or if it will ever be sold in your local marina. We do know that you don’t want it in your marine engine, as the experts are unanimous on the subject. According to Mercury Marine: “Fuel containing higher proportions of ethanol is not compatible with many fuel system and engine components and, if mistakenly used, will cause irreversible damage to these components that will lead to engine failure and potential safety risks.” At this time, we can only warn you about the possibility of confusion and the risk of accidentally filling your boat’s gas tank with E15.

To keep your engine and fuel system safe:
Do not put any fuel containing more than 10% ethanol (E10) in your boat’s fuel tank or outboard motor (EPA’s decision only applies to 2007 and newer highway vehicles), unless your owner’s manual specifically states otherwise.
Check the pump to be sure that it is dispensing E10. Some gas pumps at local gas stations may offer both E10 and E15, or have blender pumps that dispense mid-level ethanol fuels for Flex-Fuel automobiles. Higher ethanol fuel (E15) may be less expensive than regular (E10) fuel, but putting E15 into an E10 approved vessel could cause engine and fuel system damage.
Many boaters who trailer their boats (about 90% of recreational boat owners in the U.S.) fill their boat’s gas tank and/or gasoline can when they fill up their tow vehicle. Be sure that the gas can is filled only with E10 fuel. This will require a change of procedure when you fill up the new Silverado or Tundra truck, and then automatically top-up the tank for the wakeboard boat or fill the gas can for the Evinrude.
Thanks to the experts at Mercury Marine for technical help for this article concerning fuel system maintenance and issues surrounding ethanol-blended fuels.

My boats manual also states this as does every marine tech engine builder I've spoken with.
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  #17  
Old 09-12-2013, 12:50 PM
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Could an E15 mandate be grounds for a suit against the EPA, since they would be forcing us to void our warranties, and likely doing damage to our vehicles?

My grandpa bought a flex fuel Silverado when they came out, and had to buy another last year because he was having engine problems. I don't know if it had to do with running E85 in it so often but I suspect it may have. He lives in rural Kansas so its hard to find non-ethanol gas out there, but the truck wasn't even 10 years old.
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  #18  
Old 09-12-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse View Post
My grandpa bought a flex fuel Silverado when they came out, and had to buy another last year because he was having engine problems. I don't know if it had to do with running E85 in it so often but I suspect it may have. He lives in rural Kansas so its hard to find non-ethanol gas out there, but the truck wasn't even 10 years old.

running 100% gas in an ethanol prepped vehicle is perfectly fine. the problems arise when it's the other way around
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse View Post
My grandpa bought a flex fuel Silverado when they came out, and had to buy another last year because he was having engine problems. I don't know if it had to do with running E85 in it so often but I suspect it may have. He lives in rural Kansas so its hard to find non-ethanol gas out there, but the truck wasn't even 10 years old.
He may have a hard time finding pure 100% gasoline, but I'm sure he wouldn't have any problem finding gas with 10% ethanol (E10) which is perfectly OK to run in any vehicle. Most vehicles are not flex-fuel therefore cannot run E85 (85% ethanol). E85 isn't even carried at every gas station in Illinois and if it is, it's usually only 1 or 2 pumps.
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  #20  
Old 09-12-2013, 04:10 PM
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The 2 biggest problem, I see, with Ethanol is less energy then gas and phase separation. All other things to do with Ethanol in gas can be over come by using seals and hoses that don't degrade.

Even the less energy content and phase separate can be over come to a degree. For the energy issue, manufactures could turn the compression up a bit to use what energy is there more efficiently... and for phase separation, it's a matter of using it sooner or some additive that might help with it...

As for an engine not being certified for higher Ethanol content ... I think it's the grade of plastic/rubber used. It's cheaper to use parts that aren't Ethanol certified.

I still hate having Ethanol in my gas.... The crappy fuel mileage is the killer for me. I'd love to see it disappear from our gas...

I don't understand all this fear of Ethanol causing breakdowns... Yes, it could, but it's really the fault of manufactures. They've know of Ethanol issues, for years, and chose not to make all their engines E85 compatible.
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