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  #11  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:26 PM
ZMW ZMW is offline
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Valley Racer - I am refering to the HHO kits that "dribble" Hydrogen into the air fuel system. They boast big claims, but I take it worth a grain of salt. I am still curious however.

Does adding small amounts of Hydrogen improve MPG? Does the hydrogen hurt your engine or cause any damage to any parts, seals, gaskets? Risk vs reward?
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  #12  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:57 PM
crabjoe crabjoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMW View Post
Crabjoe, why can't you get more out of it then you put in? I am NO expert, but the theory of using one type of energy from your alternator to convert water into hydrogen, and that hydrogen increases the effeciency of the fuel to air mixture sounds valid.

The big question is how much does that hydrogen mixture improve mpg? If it does work, then other questions like how many amps off the alternator does it use come into play.

Does the science of it work is my big question?
You're not going to get the energy out, that you put in. To my knowledge, this is true with everything. It's usually lost in heat generation.

What's odd is that energy can't be destroyed or created....
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  #13  
Old 09-16-2013, 06:24 PM
ZMW ZMW is offline
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I was assuming that the energy required to split H20 atoms was not exactly equal to the energy that H would add to the fuel/air mixture.

I am sure if it was as simple as advertised everyone would do it, but I thought it was worth a look
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  #14  
Old 09-16-2013, 06:53 PM
Red-Stripe Red-Stripe is offline
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Crabjoe, you're right energy can't be created or destroyed- but that's not the right theory for this. You would need to know the pre-existing potential energy level of the hydrogen and the other elements, and their reaction-energy release, and that you don't know. For common examples a heat pump can give 2-3 watts of heat from 1 watt of electricity. A small shove on a hilltop boulder can crush a car, etc.. Even the oxygen that will be combined in the engine's reaction has potential energy already.
You get more energy from oil than what it took to pump it from the ground. ( not the case with ethanol !)

Last edited by Red-Stripe; 09-16-2013 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:18 PM
crabjoe crabjoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-Stripe View Post
Crabjoe, you're right energy can't be created or destroyed- but that's not the right theory for this. You would need to know the pre-existing potential energy level of the hydrogen and the other elements, and their reaction-energy release, and that you don't know. For common examples a heat pump can give 2-3 watts of heat from 1 watt of electricity. A small shove on a hilltop boulder can crush a car, etc..
You get more energy fro oil that what it took to pump it from the ground. ( not with ethanol !)
You're correct that a heat pump can generate more heat then say electric heat, which is pretty much 100% efficient. The different is, the heat pump isn't creating heat, but transferring heat.

In the case of using electrolysis to split water for Hydrogen, it's commonly thought to be 50%-80% efficient. That's in commercial applications where you're using Platinum. You're also then trying to burn the Hydrogen (similar to electric heat, not heat pump)... But you still have the problem of collecting all the Hydrogen you've made..

It's not going to work where someone's going to see a measurable improvement in MPG... If Hydrogen was so easy to make, on the fly, where we could see a measurable difference, I don't think auto makers would be messing with electric hybrids using batteries...

Believe me, if anyone wants this to work, it's me... My commute is 135 miles a day... It would save me a fortune in fuel costs.
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  #16  
Old 09-16-2013, 07:34 PM
Red-Stripe Red-Stripe is offline
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NO, no. I didn't say anywhere that this hydrogen proposal would work. I said only that your dismissal of it quoting the conservation of energy law was misplaced, and I gave you examples of your error in logic. I never said a heat pump "created" heat as you just wrote, since I thought you already understood that from the physics law you just quoted.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:50 PM
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So unless someone has some positive results it sounds like a general NO to this mod... I guess its back to the CAI, exhaust, chip method and hoping for MPG improvement, or be cheap and sit tight.

Thanks guys. Any more opinions and real world experience is greatly welcomed!
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  #18  
Old 09-16-2013, 07:53 PM
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Contact you representative and pressure him to help get rid of this silly ethanol mandate(test).
That's the cheapest MPG improvement.
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  #19  
Old 09-16-2013, 09:50 PM
crabjoe crabjoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-Stripe View Post
Contact you representative and pressure him to help get rid of this silly ethanol mandate(test).
That's the cheapest MPG improvement.
This I can agree with 100%! Ethanol in gas SUX for MPG!!!
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  #20  
Old 09-17-2013, 05:59 AM
ValleyRacer ValleyRacer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMW View Post
So unless someone has some positive results it sounds like a general NO to this mod... I guess its back to the CAI, exhaust, chip method and hoping for MPG improvement, or be cheap and sit tight.

Thanks guys. Any more opinions and real world experience is greatly welcomed!
Hydrogen exploding is not what you want. Everyone else outlined in various examples why hydrogen fuel cells (etc etc_ aren't going to be your mpg answer.

Do you have any idea what happens to a hydrogen fuel cell in accidents?

CAI - yes, exhaust mod - yes, Chip - snakeoil
Want an mpg improvement? Put on a bed cover
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