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  #21  
Old 10-15-2013, 11:30 PM
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In regards to port texture and flow, slick racing tires should support CdnoilRAMS explanation.
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Are the new generation of plastic intake manifolds a step in the wrong direction in regards to increasing flow turbulence due to their internal smooth finishes.
And your comments are just trying to start trouble, but thanks for your input.

I never said that smooth surfaces are detrimental to flow patterns and they are the norm for a reason. Laminar flow is still what we are trying to maintain in any pipe flow. What I am saying is there are new ways to enhance the flow, and smooth curved surfaces are not the most ideal. Straight sections of pipe need to be smooth for best flow, but it's in the curved and transition areas that they can be enhanced. THAT is what everything above is working towards.
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  #22  
Old 10-16-2013, 05:28 AM
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I have a question. Iunderstand straight smooth pipe forair flow if pipes to big add lines like a rifle boar to direct the air more efficiently also the more slight the bend the better to keep a votex but all that controlled air flow is for nothing when it hits the throttle body and is disrupted buy the goiant peice of metel that determines how much air goes in anyways? Even at wot air is still disrupted. So all you really need is volume and ambient temp? Does it really matter howthe air gets their. And wouldnt the.only way to increase volume be to add a larger tb?
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by CdnoilRAM View Post
And your comments are just trying to start trouble, but thanks for your input.

I never said that smooth surfaces are detrimental to flow patterns and they are the norm for a reason. Laminar flow is still what we are trying to maintain in any pipe flow. What I am saying is there are new ways to enhance the flow, and smooth curved surfaces are not the most ideal. Straight sections of pipe need to be smooth for best flow, but it's in the curved and transition areas that they can be enhanced. THAT is what everything above is working towards.
I 'm not trying to start trouble, I have been a tech in a pretty big engine lab for 30 yrs and fabricated lots of intake/exhaust/boost systems. Years ago and engineer told me that short radius bends offer less restriction to flow than long radius bends do. Just looking at the two you might think the long gradual bend would be better but do to surface friction apparently not. Some things may be a little more complex than meets the eye, to some of us anyway.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by 1stRAM2012 View Post
I have a question. Iunderstand straight smooth pipe forair flow if pipes to big add lines like a rifle boar to direct the air more efficiently also the more slight the bend the better to keep a votex but all that controlled air flow is for nothing when it hits the throttle body and is disrupted buy the goiant peice of metel that determines how much air goes in anyways? Even at wot air is still disrupted. So all you really need is volume and ambient temp? Does it really matter howthe air gets their. And wouldnt the.only way to increase volume be to add a larger tb?
Air temp and quality is more important to these engines than some kind of different air box/tube assembly. Ultimately wouldn't you want the length of the inlet pipe to change with speed and load? It's all a compromise in the end and what happens between the throttle and the valves ( intake manifold ) is more important than upstream of the throttle given no great restriction is there.
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  #25  
Old 10-16-2013, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 1stRAM2012 View Post
I have a question. Iunderstand straight smooth pipe forair flow if pipes to big add lines like a rifle boar to direct the air more efficiently also the more slight the bend the better to keep a votex but all that controlled air flow is for nothing when it hits the throttle body and is disrupted buy the goiant peice of metel that determines how much air goes in anyways? Even at wot air is still disrupted. So all you really need is volume and ambient temp? Does it really matter howthe air gets their. And wouldnt the.only way to increase volume be to add a larger tb?
Correct, the only way to add more flow volume is by increasing the true bore of the throttle body, however, the stock throttle body easily flows enough volume to feed up to 392 cubic feet as can be attested to by many N/A stroked engine owners. Beyond that a larger bore is required as the throttle body becomes the biggest restriction in the system. Ported throttle bodies have become popular because they decrease the flow restriction of the throttle body by creating a more venturi-like effect through the housing, even with the butterfly valve's restriction.

You are also correct in saying that the air is disrupted when passing through the throttle body due to the butterfly valve. When it comes to flow efficiency, the goal is to reduce as many restrictions as possible, and though small, they all tend to add up. It's the old 'one rain drop doesn't make a storm', so you want to look at all restrictions together. You can optimize the flow through the throttle body by knife-edging the leading edge, and going to a half shaft, but we've found that without proper tuning you have some bad idle issues and throttle fluctuation.

All intake velocity does is increases the efficiency of the engine's intake/overlap cycle, if there are less flow restrictions you get the air into the cylinder with less work. Granted, the difference is minimal, but when you're building something more than a daily driver every little bit counts.

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I 'm not trying to start trouble, I have been a tech in a pretty big engine lab for 30 yrs and fabricated lots of intake/exhaust/boost systems. Years ago and engineer told me that short radius bends offer less restriction to flow than long radius bends do. Just looking at the two you might think the long gradual bend would be better but do to surface friction apparently not. Some things may be a little more complex than meets the eye, to some of us anyway.
Long radius bends will always have more overall restriction than short radius because they have more surface area that acts on the flow to slow it down, however a short radius will always incite more turbulence because of the more drastic change in flow velocity. What I am talking about is limiting the increase in the Reynolds number. Again, it's all minimal difference issues, but at high RPM and high HP applications even a difference of 2hp increase is worth it. I'm not going to be dimpling the inner radius of my supercharger piping any time soon, there are just too many restrictions in my system to even imagine the minor change would affect the already turbulent flow, but since higher pressure moves fluids faster I'm not concerned.

The radius is also dependent on the fluid being moved. You should see the long sweeps that are employed when moving non-diluted bitumen compared to the 1ft inner radius bends for glycol systems.

And I'm not thumbing my nose at anyone, but sometimes turbulence can increase flow efficiency, but only if you're creating a turbulence in a low viscosity fluid and moving through a higher viscosity fluid. If you're interested, see if you can dig up anything on hyper-turbulent slipstream effect. I worked on a project a while ago where we were were trying to decrease/negate the no-slip condition on underwater bodies. We were trying, and to a degree were successful in, lowering the fluid drag on submersed bodies by creating a hyper turbulent pocket of air along the leading edge of an aerodynamic body. The basic theory is to reduce/replace the surface tension of one fluid with another. Unfortunately we couldn't get the turbulence to form to the entire length of the body, but there were good results with just the leading edge. I know this doesn't affect vehicle engines in any way, but there are other applications for it.
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  #26  
Old 10-16-2013, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CdnoilRAM;.



If you're talking about the throttle body thread, I haven't check in on that for a long time because I was getting too much grief from customers with and the occasional manufacturer of ported throttle bodies that had the impression I was calling their products crap. Hence why I wouldn't have commented.

And it's aerospace engineer, not aeronautical, my specialty was systems, structures, and vehicle design. I have been consulted by a couple of ported throttle body manufactures over port profiles designs and ideas, so I think I have a decent standing in the community. Granted, I haven't been employed as an engineer since '07, but I have kept up on some topics that still interest me.

And looking back at your last post in that thread, I don't know where I pulled 2700rpm from, all I can think is I pulled the number from one of my diesel dynos by accident, shit happens, all I can do is apologize. [B
I'm glad that out of all that info you pulled a mistake[/B], I wish I could go back and edit it, but it can't happen and I really don't care that much about it as it served its purpose when every company and their dog was coming with ported TBs and I was getting 5-7 emails/PMs daily all asking what size they need for their current level of mods.
Good to see you at least respond, but as I posted, I almost got a headache trying to digest your view of the "whys" of science, and I only pointed out the most non-technical mistake ( ft/lb@rpm) you made that I figured most non-tech viewers could appreciate. If you're game for it, I'll continue with some, or all the other points that I would debate as incorrect, but only if you want to... I don't want to be seen by the faithful here as an instigator. Let me know...
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:02 AM
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Good to see you at least respond, but as I posted, I almost got a headache trying to digest your view of the "whys" of science, and I only pointed out the most non-technical mistake ( ft/lb@rpm) you made that I figured most non-tech viewers could appreciate. If you're game for it, I'll continue with some, or all the other points that I would debate as incorrect, but only if you want to... I don't want to be seen by the faithful here as an instigator. Let me know...
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  #28  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:07 PM
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As I said before, I’m not interested too much in the throttle body thread anymore because I wrote it a while ago, in a few hours, and only to give some basic info to the members who kept PMing me about what size they needed. I hope you read through the ensuing posts as well as several questions were raised and answered.

However, I just want to have my say on the topic of textured surfaces and flow characteristics. I know you guys want to argue with me over all this, so please take the time and find your references as well and we can have a good debate over all this, I haven’t had a good one in a while.

Why is a turbulent boundary layer better for overall flow characteristics?
Here I am going to talk specifically about the boundary layer, not the overall stream flow characteristic, but it will tie in at the end, so don’t think I’m talking about creating a turbulent flow in the main stream. When you look at a typical flow boundary layer you see a nice gradual increase in the fluid velocity from zero at the surface’s edge. What you see below is a typical subsonic boundary layer.

Specifically referring to subsonic flows, when you look at this boundary layer, you will find that the boundary layer’s terminal velocity (the velocity that matches the main flow’s max velocity) is the same for both smooth and rough surfaces, so maximum flow velocity is not changed, however, the rough surface actually decreases the distance from the wall that the maximum velocity is attained, so the mean velocity is increased.

http://ecommons.usask.ca/handle/1038...1032006-225406

Now, I’m hesitant to bring up the whole golf ball theory simply because everyone focusses on the fact that it’s an external spherical surface, however, the surface theory is the same if you factor in the rear curve of the cross section. What matters is the flow over a surface, not an object.
So we can have a quick look at the cross section of the sphere, but I want you to focus on the upper trailing quarter section of the 10<Re<10^5 and Re>10^5 pictures because no transition in our intake or intake manifold maintains a true laminar or bound vortex flow pattern.


What you see is a smooth surface when subjected to a laminar flow is the flow will separate more readily than when subjected to a turbulent flow because the laminar flow doesn’t have the inertia to wrap around the surface. Now, by creating a turbulent boundary layer, you can take the flow and move the transition point forward on the surface but effectively move the separation point further downstream and even curve the flow to a degree.
By moving the separation point downstream you increase the skin friction drag, but you drastically decrease the pressure drag on the flow, so when making changes in direction or compressing the flow you will see a decrease in the boundary layer and an increase in the mean flow velocity.


What the dimpled surface is trying to mimic, is the reintegration of the streams, similar to a streamlined body. In the case of enclosed pipe flow, it’s preventing separation of the inner curve flow from the wall and crowding into the outer wall flow and impacting the outer wall which would create a very drastic change in direction and induce turbulence into the mainstream flow pattern.

What this all means is that by having a rough surface rather than a smooth one will increase the Reynolds value and turbulence of the boundary layer, but decrease the effect of the boundary layer on the overall flow velocity. What the rough surface does is create a ‘lubricating’ layer that is held to the outer surface of the tube by the lower pressure pockets created by the surface variations. Now, there are limiting factors to this effect, so taking a dremel and destroying the inner surface of a tube will not be ideal, but an even surface abrasion makes a big difference.
So now I’ll pull some important quotes from my references below:
Quote:
Whilst separation occurs in both laminar and turbulent flows, it has been studied to a greater extent in turbulent flows. This is because
a) Turbulent flows are more commonly encountered than laminar flows.
b) Separation is more likely to occur when the flow is turbulent.
c) Due to inertial effects, separation has a much greater influence in turbulent flows. It accounts for the majority of the drag on a bluff body. Delaying separation until near the end of a bluff body can greatly reduce drag.
And
Quote:
Prevention of Separation
1) Move the boundary with the stream. eg for a rotating cylinder there may be no boundary layer on the side of the cylinder rotating with the flow.
2) Suction of fluid to the wall (eg porous diffuser). This removes decelerated fluid from the wall region.
3) Acceleration of the boundary layer (blowing), eg slotted wing. Gives a high kinetic energy to fluid in the boundary layer to overcome the adverse .
http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~johnc/teach...eparation.html
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...cs/q0215.shtml

What parts of the engine will benefit from a textured surface?
Any subsonic flow in the engine that is affected by surface friction and the boundary layer. The exhaust ports and headers actually handle a supersonic flow so it is not affected by surface texture and can benefit from a mirror-like finish. However, any surface that sees subsonic flow is affected by the boundary layer and by reducing the boundary layer’s effect you can create a more efficient flow.

If you were to talk to most head porters and asked for a polished intake and exhaust they would basically tell you to pound sand or try to talk you out of it. Polishing intake ports has shown zero gains over the past 40 years of performance parts production. Some head porting companies are going so far as to pass abrasive materials through the intake ports to rough up the surface, so there’s obviously a reason for it to be done. Here’s a quote from an unverified source on a LS forum:
Quote:
I'm a tech inspector for two racing associations. Here’s the scenario. end of season, big money race using spec engines. One car is obviously faster than everyone else, while all year he was slow. Upon inspection it is revealed that the entire floor and walls of the intake are dimpled, much like a golf ball. We confiscated the intake, ran back to back tests on two different engines on a Superflow Dyno swapping intakes between tests. Exact same intake, one dimpled, one not. Both intakes port matched to the heads. On these two engines the dimpled intake made 23.9 and 23.2 Hp more, all else being equal. Take it for what it’s worth. This was performed on engines in the 650 Hp range.
The reason is actually two-fold; now that modern CNC machines are able to do some truly spectacular work you’re starting to see fully textured inner surfaces, and the results aren’t earth shattering but can make a difference.
One reason is on pre-valve fuel injection systems you want to maintain suspension of the fuel in the intake flow and with smooth surfaces you’ll find pooling and runnels collecting on the surface, but with rough surfaces the suspended fuel droplets are pushed back into the flow by the turbulence and carried into the combustion chamber. That however is only the last 1” of the flow pattern in the hemi’s intake runners. This is important to know because you have to pay attention to the limiting port velocity if you inject further upstream such as with nitrous, but it’s less an issue in typical N/A or boosted engines considering the short distance that the fluid travels and the velocity and parallel direction that it is injected into the flow.

The other reason is to decrease the boundary layer effect and increase mean flow velocity.

Now, I hope we can have a productive discussion on this. As to why you see so many ‘smooth’ intakes is because of production costs and nothing more. The average joe knows that dragging objects across a smooth floor is easier than dragging them across a rough one, so they look at an intake the same way, and almost every volume CAI manufacturer out there plays on this since it’s cheaper to manufacture an intake tube with a smooth interior than it would be to maximize flow with a textured surface. Molded plastic is also cheap compared to seamless tubing and less labor intensive than fiberglass or carbon fiber. Not too many people I know outside of my dedicated race group are willing to spend $600 on a carbon fiber inner textured true CAI system with properly tapered connections.
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:50 PM
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as always Kurtis it is delightful to read your posts however this one went WAY over my head for the most part, I am going to read some of your references though and see if I can wrap my head around everything a little better and look forward to a nice clean debate

Thanks
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:57 PM
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I would be very interested in seeing time slips or anything that substantiates the claims made by Vararam. I am in no way trying to be argumentative however, I ran my truck at the track before and after (1 week between the two) and saw no improvement in ET or MPH despite the DA being lower on the runs with the Vararam. I drove the truck 60 miles after installing the Vararam and resetting the ECU. I can provide dates, timeslips, or a spreadsheet containing the entire track history of the truck with mods for verification if it will help others but I suspect I'll be testing out the return policy that is advertised.
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