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  #1  
Old 10-15-2013, 10:34 PM
brucew brucew is offline
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Hi,

I currently have a 2007 GMC Sierra Denali with a 6.2.

I started looking at the Ecodiesel a few months ago but have pretty much decided that it is not the best choice since it is unlikely to be available this year and acceleration and towing capacity are limited despite impressive torque.

I really like the interior of the Rams and the Rambox. So I am pretty much decided on a Hemi. But recently I learned about the low payload capacity of the Rams, especially the Laramie models which is what I am after.

I have had 2200 pounds in the bed of my current truck and I have towed 12,000 pound trailers three times (with brakes on all four wheels).

I would want the four corner air suspension which is another big selling point for me.

I may buy the Ram and plan to use a trailer any time I want to move more than a few hundred pounds.

What is the consensus? Are they just underrated or am I really going to destroy it if I put the family in the cab and a few bags or sand or dog food in the bed? I am assuming under rated.

Also does the air suspension increase payload?

Is the low payload some trick to increase mpg rating or otherwise target regulations?
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:03 AM
boatbum boatbum is offline
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Everything is a compromise. The Ram uses coil springs which limit payload capacity. OTOH, it's a pretty smooth riding and nice handling truck.

If anything, the air suspension will reduce cargo capacity because it adds weight and I don't believe it increases the overall weight rating of the vehicle.

If you're looking to tow 12k lbs and/or put 2k lbs in the bed for more than a few miles at a time, I'd recommend a different truck.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: payload

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucew2 View Post
...What is the consensus? Are they just underrated or am I really going to destroy it if I put the family in the cab and a few bags or sand or dog food in the bed? I am assuming under rated.

Also does the air suspension increase payload?

Is the low payload some trick to increase mpg rating or otherwise target regulations?
Good questions but hard to find clear answers. The payload info provided by all the manufacturers is confusing at best. The forums for each brand have many posts that try to uncover the real payload capacity and what the practical or legal implications might be of exceeding the official rating.

All we really have to go on is the GVWR and the measured curb weight of a built truck. How the GVWR is determined by the manufacturer is another question; as you suspect it might be influenced by how they interpret regulations and their design goals. Also, changes we make to the suspension and weight distribution can affect how this all plays out. I think experience counts for a lot--wish I had more!

The one thing I do know is that every physical accessory we add to a truck subtracts from the rated payload and usually increases fuel consumption. A basic Ram 1500 Tradesman 4x2 with regular cab has a payload rating over 1900 lbs, whereas a Laramie 4x4 crew cab is 1200 lbs. Add a RamBox to it and the rating drops another 150 lbs. A fully-optioned Limited can have a rating of only around 900 lbs, barely enough for 5 people--the final transformation into a car substitute!

The differences between basic models compared to premium models are similar for Ford, GMC and Toyota. Common options such as large wheels and tires, side steps, large fuel tank, bed liner, bed cover, premium seats, and skid plates can add 30 to 50 lbs each. No free lunch when it comes to weight.

I doubt that coil suspension limits the Ram's payload, given that coils are used in some very heavy-duty vehicles. Nor should air suspension affect payload rating (it should improve handling), although one owner reported carrying 2000 lbs and the system leveled the truck as normal. In any case, if you want to routinely carry 2200 lbs in the bed you are much better off with a one-ton truck. If you mostly carry family and groceries with occasional towing, the half-ton should be fine.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:31 PM
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Looking at this page http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/

I see that a Laramie 1500 Hemi4x4 with 3.92 is rated for a MAXGCVW of 15,650 pounds. Which breaks down to 5,550 for the truck, 1,395 for driver, passengers and cargo (the payload numbers assume a 150 pound driver) and tow capacity of 9,950 pounds (with only a 150 pound driver) to 8,705 pounds (with 1,395 pounds of driver, passengers and cargo).

Adding air suspension and rambox I probably need to subtract a 300 pounds from those numbers. But is enough to take my family and boat on the 1000 mile round trips we normally take in the summers.

I hope not to tow too many more 12K trailers. 2,200 pounds in the bed of the Denali was a one time 30 mile trip to move a crate of travertine that I expected to have delivered but needed to get to my house which was under construction. I went back the next day and picked up three more with a trailer.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:34 PM
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If you are hauling 2000lbs in the bed on a regular basis with 4 people, you are talking the need for a 1 ton truck. Some 3/4 tons would handle that, but when you add in people and fuel, it probably pushes it past it payload capacity. You can get a 1 ton single rear wheel that would take care of that load and not be a dually.

Just keep in mind most trucks have a Gross Rating, which is the total weight of the truck plus payload, people, everything. This would also include any tongue weight of a trailer. They also have a combined rating, which would include the trailer weight. These numbers add up fast and it doesn't take much to make it too much for a half ton, no matter who makes it.

I own a 3/4 ton with a diesel and the truck is much heavier duty, but by the time you add up the weight of the heavier parts and a diesel engine, it really doesn't have any more capacity then some 1/2 tons. It will tow more than half tons, but not much more capacity for the payload. That's why I'm saying you might look at a 1 ton single wheel.
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Last edited by dodge man; 10-16-2013 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:25 PM
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this is the 1500 model payload/towing specs by vehicle
http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_g...wing.Specs.pdf

All of the U.S. automotive manufacturers have been flat out lying about their payload/towing specs
in the past, Dodge has been lying to us, the customer, by posting ratings Lower then the vehicles actually capacities
Ford & GM have been posting ratings Higher then their vehicles actual capacities

Beginning with the 2013 models, the BIG 3 auto builders all agreed to use the same towing standards, as set by the S.A.E. standard ( SAE’s Surface Vehicle Recommended Practice J2807 )
Here is the article
http://vogeltalksrving.com/2011/08/t...les-to-apples/
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Last edited by GTyankee; 10-16-2013 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:46 PM
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Remember there is no SAE standard for GVWR and GCWR ratings, so it's only a useful when making comparisons within the same manufacturer. Ford in particular seems to be liberal with their published numbers, with history of upgrading the specs with no change to the product. If you look at axle weight ratings the 1500 is very competitive with Ford and GM so it's unclear why the Ram GVWR numbers are low in comparison. It's not a coil vs leaf spring issue - coils can easily be made to carry more load.

If you are planning to carry a lot of payload, air suspension should be something to consider. It only adds 35lbs to vehicle weight but provides better load handling (I have not direct experience, only echoing what test reviews imply).

The 1500 does have a strong GCWR, which means when you subtract vehicle weight you also have a strong tow rating. The point of concern here boils down to payload based on GVWR. The question then becomes is Ram conservative with the GVWR, where we should be comfortable with heavier payloads and occasionally exceed spec, or is the rating grounded on something real that we should take seriously. Yeah, the liability card comes out here, but given ratings are a big game for truck manufacturers I put more value on related comments from this forum and third party testing
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:03 PM
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I think that a lot of confusion comes from the footnote "Payload and maximum trailer weight are mutually exclusive. Additionally, the GAWRs and GVWRs should never be exceeded."

The PDF http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_g...wing.Specs.pdf shows that a Crew Cab 5'7" Box 4x4 Laramie Hemi with 3.92 has 1,270 pound payload and 9,950 max trailer. While stating the "mutually exclusive" clause.

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/ shows 1,245 pound payload and 8,705 trailer weight for the same truck. If you reduce the trucks load to a 150 pound driver then the trailer weight increases to 9,950 pounds. This must exceed the GVWR if Ram includes tongue weight in GVWR. But it may not exceed GAWR depending on where the payload is located.

For both the GCWR (pdf) and MAX GCVW (website) are 15,650 pounds. This value changes a lot as the gear ratio changes so it must be the maximum that Ram feels the truck can propel with the engine and transmission.

The pdf states that the capacities are "mutually exclusive" (you cant have all of both) but does not define how to calculate them.

The website seems to use a formula that calculates capacity as a factor of both tongue weight reducing payload and GCWR.

I wish there was a SAE standard for payload and tow ratings and that Ram would produce the formula behind the capacity website.

Regardless http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/ makes me feel more confident that the Ram 1500 can meet my needs. I need to take the family, stuff and 5K of boat on trips. Now that I am no longer building a house I can be more reasonable about trailer weight and heavy loads in the bed.

Last edited by brucew; 10-16-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:15 PM
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If you are towing a 5k boat, a half ton is fine. In your first post you talked about 2000 lbs of payload and a 12k trailer.

I'll just say I have and I've known people that have exceeded payload and trailer weight on 1/2 tons, we have all seen it. I had a 2007 half ton Dodge that I hauled many loads of water to fill our swimming pool. It was around 250 gallons of water a trip, which would be about 2000 lbs a trip. I'm guessing I made over a hundred trips. It didn't seem to hurt anything but couldn't have been good for it either.

Another thing is what if you have a wreck. If you are within the weight limits of the truck, not a problem but what if you are to heavy or have to big of a trailer?
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodge man View Post
If you are towing a 5k boat, a half ton is fine. In your first post you talked about 2000 lbs of payload and a 12k trailer.

I'll just say I have and I've known people that have exceeded payload and trailer weight on 1/2 tons, we have all seen it. I had a 2007 half ton Dodge that I hauled many loads of water to fill our swimming pool. It was around 250 gallons of water a trip, which would be about 2000 lbs a trip. I'm guessing I made over a hundred trips. It didn't seem to hurt anything but couldn't have been good for it either.

Another thing is what if you have a wreck. If you are within the weight limits of the truck, not a problem but what if you are to heavy or have to big of a trailer?
^^ This ... 12000 pound trailers are 3/4ton + truck territory. I don't know of a half ton "rated" to tow that much trailer. IF you got in a wreck with that in tow your insurance company would in all likelyhood tell you to stuff it.
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