DODGE RAM FORUM - Ram Forums and Owners Club! - Dodge Truck Forum

Go Back   DODGE RAM FORUM - Ram Forums and Owners Club! - Dodge Truck Forum > Dodge Ram Forum - Mod Zone - Custom Dodge Ram Mods - Dodge Ram Performance > Custom Dodge Ram Performance Mods - Engine - 5.7 HEMI V8
Register Advertising Gallery FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Notices

Custom Dodge Ram Performance Mods - Engine - 5.7 HEMI V8 Discuss modifying your Dodge Ram with Performance Parts and Accessories!
Factory Spec: 5.7-liter HEMI® V8 engine - 390 horsepower, 407 lb-ft of torque.


Latest Vendor News
AutoAnything
Addictive Desert Designs!
Bayou Goat Mounts

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 12-19-2013, 09:19 PM
GasHole's Avatar
GasHole GasHole is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maryland
Age: 44
Posts: 91
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2013 Ram 1500
Trim Level: Sport
Color: Deep Cherry Crystal
Engine: 2009-20?? 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 390hp 407lb/ft
Rep Power: 0
Rep:42
GasHole is on a distinguished road
Default Tuners versus stock PCM

Was just wondering....as far as programmer/tuners go; the basic function of these things is to add horsepower and increase performance, and, as collateral, hopefully some increase in gas mileage, correct? And they basically accomplish this by simply reprogramming the truck's pcm to increase timing (and fuel trims too, right??)....**for us old-school hot-rodders and racers, the same thing you did by loosening the distributor and rotating it clockwise with a timing light pulsating flashes of light at the spinning crankshaft pulley until you achieved the desired amount of advance, and then taking a screwdriver to your carburetor's fuel metering screws to richen the fuel--remember those days??! Ha!
Anyway, my question is very simply this; if the truck's pcm (which replaces what I just described above) detects the hotter burn from a new tankful of higher octane gasoline, (say 92 or 93), -and correspondingly kicks the engine's timing up a bit to better accommodate it, then isn't that the same exact thing that buying a tuner and installing the 93 tune does for you???
And if so, then what in the hell is the purpose of buying a $500.00 tuner if your truck's pcm will accomplish these basic functions for you already?
Or does a tuner really kick up the timing advance that much more than the pcm would because of the factory's safety, fuel economy and emissions concerns?
I know this may seem a bit counterintuitive, but still.....what's the word on this? Thanks.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #2  
Old 12-19-2013, 09:35 PM
CdnoilRAM's Avatar
CdnoilRAM CdnoilRAM is offline
I push the skinny pedal


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary, AB, CA
Age: 31
Posts: 17,507
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2009 Blown 349 Hemi
Trim Level: Sport - Modified
Color: Brilliant Black/Snake Skin Green
Engine: 2009-2012 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 390hp 407lb/ft
Rep Power: 21
Rep:3283
CdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond reputeCdnoilRAM has a reputation beyond repute
Default

The OEM computer doesn't detect a higher octane fuel and advance timing, nor does it detect a hotter burn. All it has to work with is the AFR from the O2 sensors before and after the cats. The OEM computer works based on fuel trim tables and has set advancements that it makes based on those tables. The only way the computer will alter those set parameters is if the knock sensors pick up anything and then it will retard timing. This is in open loop of course. In closed loop the computer does everything in its power to keep the AFR in a very narrow window. (14.3-14.5 IIRC)

A programer will actually alter the pre-set tables and change how far the computer can advance the timing, but if it picks up any knock it will retard the timing accordingly, which is why you use a higher octane fuel to prevent any pre-detonation. They can also desensitize the knock sensors for things like stroker builds.

What it comes down to is if you run 93 octane fuel on an 87 tune, you are not taking advantage of the fuel's ability to prevent pre-detonation, but if you run 87 octane on a 93 tune you'll have crazy amounts of knock and the timing will be severely retarded. The computer can only make adjustments within its preset parameters.
__________________
Sponsored by Bully's Performance
Green Mamba '09 Ram 1500 QCRB 4x4 Sport - dropped, blown, and bottle fed
Kurtis
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-19-2013, 10:59 PM
jerseymike's Avatar
jerseymike jerseymike is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Tabernacle
Age: 48
Posts: 215
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2013
Trim Level: Express
Color: Black
Engine: 2009-20?? 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 390hp 407lb/ft
Rep Power: 3
Rep:116
jerseymike will become famous soon enoughjerseymike will become famous soon enough
Default

The tuner does many more things to increase power to the wheels including: increased wot shift points, increased part throttle shift point, reducing traction control, reducing stability control, reducing torque management, increases shift firmness, turning of mds, increasing top speed, this is on top of increasing timing and fuel. Also may reduce knock retard sensativity and increase the rate of recovery from KR. Additionally, the added horse power also holds the rpms higher after a shift thus keeping the truck in its power band longer. I just drove home tonight and smoked the tires with only about half throttle then had a nice had chirp into second gear. Then i slowed for a light and hit the gas at a 10mph role and the tires broke loose again. I learned a lot from reading this forum and if you follow the formula for these trucks you will be able to smoke em at will.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-20-2013, 01:35 AM
chefred112's Avatar
chefred112 chefred112 is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NorCal
Posts: 5,968
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2005 Dodge Ram
Trim Level: SLT
Color: white
Engine: 2003-2008 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 345hp 375lb/ft
Rep Power: 10
Rep:656
chefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to behold
Default

and depending how much mods you add (like headers, cam, bv heads etc)..it won't run with a stock pcm... need a tuner that can do custom tuning...

__________________
-fast freddie- one quick 05 hemi qc...with over 275k miles on odo... on the 5.7, stoker 6.4 now...Inertia Motorsports 392 stroker
5.7 e.t.'s: 1/8 - 7.85@93.20, 1/4 - 12.10@113.96 juice - 12.96 NA... 6.4 e.t. 12.54@107 NA
2005 Dodge Ram 1500 QC SLT: 12.107 @ 113.960 MPH
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:59 PM
GasHole's Avatar
GasHole GasHole is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maryland
Age: 44
Posts: 91
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2013 Ram 1500
Trim Level: Sport
Color: Deep Cherry Crystal
Engine: 2009-20?? 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 390hp 407lb/ft
Rep Power: 0
Rep:42
GasHole is on a distinguished road
Default

Hmm. Very informative, Green Mamba. Guess my ignorance about these tuners is my worst enemy. I do know that they allow you a lot more options above and beyond what I was describing above, but for the basic horsepower-increasing formula of timing + fuel, I thought that whatever the truck's stock pcm would do was basically the same thing. Good to know.
I had mine installed for about a week and a half, but could never get the damn thing to shift right with it. So I got scared, pulled it, called Diablo, and they told me to re-update the tool, reinstall, and see what happens. I've done all that, but have yet to reinstall the tune, (93 octane tune), as I now have cold feet and was trying to 'reason' myself out of it. Other guys on here seem to be very happy with their results, so I am going to give it another go. But the first time my truck so much as flares a nostril, it's going back to stock and my Trinity will be in the classifieds. I'm just scared to death of screwing this new $40,000+ truck up. Anybody else had any similar experiences so far?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-21-2013, 08:53 AM
jerseymike's Avatar
jerseymike jerseymike is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Tabernacle
Age: 48
Posts: 215
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2013
Trim Level: Express
Color: Black
Engine: 2009-20?? 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 390hp 407lb/ft
Rep Power: 3
Rep:116
jerseymike will become famous soon enoughjerseymike will become famous soon enough
Default

Maybe I can clarify the part throttle shift set-up for you. For the 1st to 2nd shift you will see options to set shift points for each throttle position, 10%, 20%, 30%, etc. You can(should) move up each point along the curve(throttle position/fuel curve). So move the 10% shift point from 1700 to 2000, then move the 20% shift point from 1900 to 2100, etc, etc, all the way up to wide open throttle shift from 5600 to 5900. Then do the same for the 2nd to 3rd shift at each throttle position(10%, 20%, 30%, etc). This change alone has vastly improved the driveability and fun factor of my truck. There were some weird little 'clitches' when I first installed the tuner but after driveing for a couple weeks the truck(TCM) has re-learned to adapt to the changes. Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-21-2013, 09:59 PM
GasHole's Avatar
GasHole GasHole is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maryland
Age: 44
Posts: 91
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2013 Ram 1500
Trim Level: Sport
Color: Deep Cherry Crystal
Engine: 2009-20?? 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 390hp 407lb/ft
Rep Power: 0
Rep:42
GasHole is on a distinguished road
Default

It does, and thanks very much for that explanation. Its a hell of a lot more than what any of the techs at Diablo have taken time to explain to me so far when asked.....
As far as today; I did reinstall the newly updated tuner and its 93 octane program. The only parameters I adjusted were the throttle booster and the tire size (to 35). I took it for a test run and the truck ran, well, I really hate to say this, but just terrible. It had real bad hesitation throughout any type of acceleration I did, flat spots all over the place, the shifts were sloppy, and actually it accelerated much slower than just without the tuner at all. I am not exaggerating at all. I am now at a complete loss as to WTF is going on, and am scared to pursue it any more. I guess I'm just one of those 'lucky' guys with a black cloud over me and this Trinity.
At any rate, I will tell you that I run nothing but 93 octane in this thing, and without the tuner and the few mods I have (a Vararam, a catchcan, and a Magnaflow muffler only)--this truck runs really strong just the way it sits. So at this point, I think I might just package the Trinity up in its original packing with the accessories it came with when I bought it two years ago and just Craigslist it, or Ebay it (unless anyone here is interested in it). It just aint worth the hassle and/or peace of mind to me right now. Plus, I'm not a computer-tech guy enough to even try all this data-logging problem solving stuff that Diablo wants me to do. Man, I don't have time for all that crap! Kinda disappointing actually, because I'm a horsepower junkie just as bad as the rest of you....just not to the point of risking hurting my engine or trans to get more of it.
Anyway, thanks for the input. On to bigger and hopefully better things, I guess.
Oh! And for those considering a Trinity, please don't let my negative experience sway you; it could entirely be just something with this particular unit with MY truck.....it worked AWSEOME with my 2012 Charger RT...thing ran like a freakin beast.
I don't know........
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-23-2013, 12:51 AM
chefred112's Avatar
chefred112 chefred112 is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NorCal
Posts: 5,968
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2005 Dodge Ram
Trim Level: SLT
Color: white
Engine: 2003-2008 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 345hp 375lb/ft
Rep Power: 10
Rep:656
chefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to beholdchefred112 is a splendid one to behold
Default

that's the thing, datalogging can tell us everything (at least the tuner guys), your not making any changes to the tune, your just logging data, not forcing anything into the pcm. too bad none of us are closer to you, I'd come over just to show you how to log..
__________________
-fast freddie- one quick 05 hemi qc...with over 275k miles on odo... on the 5.7, stoker 6.4 now...Inertia Motorsports 392 stroker
5.7 e.t.'s: 1/8 - 7.85@93.20, 1/4 - 12.10@113.96 juice - 12.96 NA... 6.4 e.t. 12.54@107 NA
2005 Dodge Ram 1500 QC SLT: 12.107 @ 113.960 MPH
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-23-2013, 11:41 AM
HemiLonestar's Avatar
HemiLonestar HemiLonestar is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: MD
Age: 41
Posts: 2,453
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2003 Dodge Ram 1500 QC
Trim Level: SLT Lonestar Edition
Color: Flame Red
Engine: 2003-2008 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 345hp 375lb/ft
Rep Power: 7
Rep:280
HemiLonestar is a jewel in the roughHemiLonestar is a jewel in the roughHemiLonestar is a jewel in the rough
Send a message via AIM to HemiLonestar Send a message via MSN to HemiLonestar Send a message via Yahoo to HemiLonestar
Default

Are you near Baltimore? I could probably show you.
__________________

"Big Red"
2003 Ram 1500 QC Hemi Lonestar Edition (Mods list in profile)
2006 Charger R/T
Sarcasm - it beats killing people
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-23-2013, 02:37 PM
jerseymike's Avatar
jerseymike jerseymike is offline
Dodge Ram Forum Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Tabernacle
Age: 48
Posts: 215
Gender: Male
Vehicle: 2013
Trim Level: Express
Color: Black
Engine: 2009-20?? 345ci (5.7L) Hemi V8 390hp 407lb/ft
Rep Power: 3
Rep:116
jerseymike will become famous soon enoughjerseymike will become famous soon enough
Default

I would just get a Hemifever tune and call it a day. I didnt like the canned Diablo tune at all but HF tune makes it a whole different truck. Just get and load his baseline tune and you will be very pleased. You dont even have to datalog for him as him base tune for the truck will work great with the mods you have. Its worth 125 to give it a chance.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Advertisement






All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:54 AM.


= Copyright RamForumZ.com a Gigathreads.com Network Site =Ad Management by RedTyger
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vB.Sponsors