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  #21  
Old 12-26-2013, 12:08 AM
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CdnoilRAM CdnoilRAM is offline
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Just give me a damned turbine engine car, those things will run on ANYTHING.
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  #22  
Old 12-26-2013, 12:30 AM
Hornet Hornet is online now
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Chyrsler tried that already didn't they,lol.
Wasn't it somewhere around 62 or 63 they had a turbine car

I'd of killed to get something like E85 20 years ago Kurtis.

Back in my Nitrous days,i always wanted to use Propane as the enrichment fuel,never did try it though,as i could melt holes in pistons fast enough on straight gas,lol.
But the benefits to Propane and nitrous are lots when used on a gas powered toy.
Latent heat absorption in the intake tract /the ability to keep the timing advanced etc.,made Propane look good on paper
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  #23  
Old 12-26-2013, 01:30 AM
Gen1dak Gen1dak is offline
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"Until you can vary compression ratio's of an existing engine on the fly,mutli-fuel is at best a compromise."

Easy enough accomplished with an electronically-controlled wastegate and the turbo that comes with it. Even my 1990 RC Factory Service Manual addresses this to the degree of what was available then. The only concerns when running E10 were over drivability, difficulty starting, and poorer mileage. The term gasahol was popular in the 70's for the same reason. Now, I can see corrosion being an issue in marine environments as well as when a vehicle is not run for weeks at a time. This would allow water to accumulate in the fuel system.

I can see the car companies not wanting to cover warranty issues. Would they cover damage caused if you tried to run diesel in your gas engine? No. It would seem they were not aware of the looming E30 issue (seems bizarre they wouldn't, but I've seen bigger screwups than that. If the vehicle isn't properly equipped to deal with the corrosive effects of higher alcohol content, and lacks the programming to roll the ignition timing back far enough to deal with the lower rating (they did say it was around 84 octane) and increase fuel flow to prevent a lean running engine, then a "death flash" should be easy enough to work up, swap out a couple fuel lines, add a fuel sniffer. Seems then, they'd be okay, but then again, that'd cost money. You gonna line up for that $1000.00 package? By the time they settled on who, and how it'd be paid for, at least half of the vehicles in question would be retired anyway. From the automakers view, it's easier to ride it out and count on the replacement cycle to push people to buy new stuff, and in a world where people are often motivated to swap out for a newer model just for the latest style (and more would if they could afford it), well, you see my point?

Pure gas is still the best way to go (as opposed to blends..... diesel is a different animal and not part of this discussion). You wanna tweak your rides with alky, hey, fine, but for the general public it's a bad idea. Additional pumps, more expensive alcohol-resistant parts, while burning up my food!!! All bad ideas, and not needed in an all-gasoline situation. All this adds expense, and not just at the pump. I love how they sell it all on the "natural" moniker. Corn is natural, so it must be better.... as fuel for my car?!?!!?!? Well, what's more natural than oil? It comes from the ground too. What's more natural than that? It's made from "NATURALLY" refined and processed ORGANIC material deep inside Mother Earth. There are bumper crops all over the planet ready to be harvested, but the greenies would rather burn corn. If they made a turbo with all the bells and whistles, that'd sniff the octane, adjust timing, boost, and fuel flow to achieve optimal power for whatever octane fuel was used, then you'd have something. Again, not cheap. Good luck with getting that in an econobox for $15,000.
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  #24  
Old 12-26-2013, 06:45 AM
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You make some good points for pre-00 vehicles,and the use of turbo's.
But you'll have to show me something that still has a steel tank or steel lines these days.
Haven't seen either in probably close to 15 years.

But a variable nozzle turbo is something that will work to generate cylinder pressure with a multi-fuel engine,a very valid idea and point.
It won't change the compression ratio,but it will generate differant levels of cylinder pressure,which equals torque production.
Higher cylinder pressure = higher torque levels.
Compression ratio is a built-in given that can't be changed unless you change the size of the cylinder at it's smallest point.
The volume in a cylinder at it's biggest point,is a multiplication factor of it's volume at it's smallest point.
Ie: if the cylinder is 10 times bigger at it's biggest point then it is,at it's smallest point it has a compression ratio of 10 to 1.
Compression ratio's are a poor indicator of an engines fuel requirements,but they're easy for the average consumer to relate too.
Cylinder pressures are a better indictator for fuel required then compression ratio,but for the average guy,cylinder pressure numbers usually don't mean much

84 octane?? for E15,more like 105 or higher.
You'll need to roll the timing ahead to create cylinder pressure,not back,or boost the crap out of it with a blower.
Rolling the timing back for a higher octane fuel is counter productive.

But you've got some points,mind you they scrape the bare bottom as far as points go,but still are valid.
The food chain costs are arguable,but still a factor,that one i'll give you for sure.
I agree there's better alternatives then corn for fuel.
Look at the wasted methane from garbage dumps,why isn't it collected and used etc.

Last edited by Hornet; 12-26-2013 at 07:53 AM. Reason: Add a little more info/fix grammer
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  #25  
Old 12-26-2013, 12:11 PM
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I don't have any links to support this rumor, but I've heard that as part of the new national budget, subsidies to corn farmers will be trimmed back. According to the same rumor, Mr. Obama had said that our country is now awash in petroleum production. Just my rambling on now,....why should we as taxpayers continue to subsidize corn producers so that we can buy an ethanol laced fuel which gives us lower mpg and theoretically lower performance? If, as in the rumor, we are no longer in a gasoline shortage situation, and even exporting our excess petroleum production to foreign countries, my suggestion would be to keep that subsidy money back in our own pockets thru lower taxes instead of giving it to the corn producers, and while we are at it, let us all enjoy a low or ethanol free fuel at possibly a still lower cost. In my area at least, the cost of food products which incorporate corn ingredients have been driven up because much of US corn production goes into ethanol production. To my way of thinking, this all amounts to a loosing proposition except for the corn producers, and is no longer relevant in today's economy. I'm certainly no expert on politics, government subsidies or the continued use of ethanol in our fuels, so for those of you with alternative views, please feel free to enlighten me on your thinking.
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  #26  
Old 12-26-2013, 12:24 PM
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ethanol gets many votes for politicians that support ethanol use.
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  #27  
Old 12-26-2013, 10:37 PM
Gen1dak Gen1dak is offline
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With my 84 octane statement, I was quoting the video in the original post. It doesn't make sense that it'd be lower with more alky if everything else is the same, but if they're totally dumping on the gas side of things, and counting on the alky to bring it up, the new rating could still be, as stated, 84, or somewhere equally dismal. It could also be a totally mis-informed pseudo-expert tossing out nonsense. I don't know. The European E30 rating appears to be around 95. Obviously, if E30 is higher octane, it's all good there. My statements on rolling back timing, etc were in reference to an 84 octane number. Turning up the boost and advancing ignition timing will take advantage of higher octane. My whole point in using a turbo to increase CR was not to say it could physically increase CR, but to increase cylinder pressure, which is the goal, after all. Tweaks in cam, and ignition also affect this, but pressurized induction is by far the biggest factor. SO, I should've been more clear. Since it is not really possible to practically increase mechanical CR on-the-fly, a turbo would be the most obvious solution for increasing cylinder pressure when higher octane is sensed. Viton fuel lines are all that's needed in place of traditional rubber. With a nylon braid good to 500psi, you don't need steel lines. My 1990 RC's plastic tank still looks new inside. E10 hasn't bothered it. I just wish if they want us to keep using gas, they would stop screwing with it.

Last edited by Gen1dak; 12-26-2013 at 10:44 PM.
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  #28  
Old 12-26-2013, 10:40 PM
Gen1dak Gen1dak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CdnoilRAM View Post
Just give me a damned turbine engine car, those things will run on ANYTHING.
Had a residual heat issue. Kept setting the yard on fire. Also, there's the slow accel times. The turbine is relatively slow spooling up, even the newest ones take a little time. Not so good when you need full throttle NOW!
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