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  #181  
Old 08-18-2011, 04:32 PM
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I think you may find that engines with twin turbos, require more frequent oil changes, can get very expensive to repair, and run hotter....any six has to work harder to try and match a larger cu in V/8...... I rather have a large V/8 that is running easy than any smaller engine that is working hard...to obtain the same result.....but I'm an old school kinda guy
I agree with that. As an example...a 8 cylinder 6L engine making 500hp will move X amount of air/fuel through it. A 4 cylinder 3L engine making the same 500hp will move 2X amount of air/fuel through it.

Something I like about smaller engines though is they have less. For example, I built a ford 300cid inline six that competed well with most small blocks that were similarly built (of course it would lose forced induction). Everything I bought was cheaper than a v8, for example if I bought pistons at $!50/ea, I saved $300 on pistons....things like this. But to get a turbo 4 cyl to match power of a naturally aspirated v8 it would prob be more expensive...

I disagree that a turboed engine will run hotter.....the turbos will be hot, but you can still regulate the cooling of the engine well with a good cooling system. Same with oil, the only reason oil would need more frequent changes is if it were used to cool the turbos...
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  #182  
Old 08-18-2011, 04:42 PM
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Ford already did the test. the Eco boost engine does out perform the 5.7l Hemi. Here is a link to the video http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f...ure:headtohead
Keep in mind. I AM A HARDCORE FORD FAN... what do I drive? a 2011 Ram 1500 sport. The fords are good trucks. They can tow more, get better gas milage and in every way that counts on paper are better. However several things sold me on my Dodge. 1, The sound of a Hemi is unmatched by any current production v8. 2, The Fit and Finish of the dodges is above their ford counterpart. 3, boost the hemi to the same specifications and watch it walk all over any half ton Ford truck ever built.

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  #183  
Old 08-18-2011, 04:45 PM
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They can tow more, get better gas milage and in every way that counts on paper are better.
I definitely would argue that on the older engines, the 5.4L for example. The new engines sure are competitive though. Other than the new engines, there's nothing appealing to me about the trucks.
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  #184  
Old 08-18-2011, 05:29 PM
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[QUOTE=snrusnak;593691]I agree with that. As an example...a 8 cylinder 6L engine making 500hp will move X amount of air/fuel through it. A 4 cylinder 3L engine making the same 500hp will move 2X amount of air/fuel through it.QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. HP and torque are developed through the mechanical transformation of force from heat created by a burning fuel. Fuel potential energy is commonly expressed in BTU's, British Thermal Units. Since BTU's and HP are both a measure of power, they can be compared, apples to apples. Specifically, 1HP/hour = 2545 BTU's/hour. Gas has 114,000 BTU's per gallon. using your example of a 500hp engine, we will find that in order to develop 500 hp for an hour, an engine will need to burn more than 11.16 gallons of fuel. the amount more than is the exactly 11.16 gallons divided by the efficiency of the motor is question. This number will be expressed in a value greater than 0 and less than 1. I can't find the study, but the US government studied internal combustion engines and found that the most efficient they can get is 85%. in our equasion, .85 would be the number that we divide 11.16 by.

NOTE: 85% includes robbing every available btu of heat expelled through the exhaust, so in a real world vehicle that doesn't do heat recovery, the number will be less that 85% or .85.

So if our engines both have an efficiency of 85% then they would both need to burn 13.13 gallons of fuel in order to produce 500 hp for an hour.

Now lets talk about engine efficiency. the engine efficiency is a variable described by how well the engine mixes fuel, burns that fuel and recovers energy by that fuel. the biggest source of waste are light, that is generated by the fuel burn, heat/preasure that is not being used once the exhaust leaves the burn chamber and friction from bearing surfaces.

Since you cannot mitigate the light created by the burn, the only variables that we can manipulate are friction and heat/preasure loss.

We can recover lost power through reducing friction and this has been demonstrated by use of superior lubricants, like Royal Purpal and the various other synthetic oils that are produced, frankly I don't remember them all. the Average v8 gets about 5hp gain from. 4 and 6 cylinder engines have less of an advantage because they have less friction from less moving parts.

This leaves us with finding a way to use the heat/preassure expelled from the burn chamber. The current way this is done is through a Turbo Charger. A turbo charger uses this wasted energy to pump and compress intake air before forcing it into the burn chamber.

So, given everything being equal, a small turbo charged engine producing a given horse power and torque will burn less fuel than a larger engine producing the same horse power and torque, because the smaller engine haas lest internal resistance and uses the wasted power lost from expelled exhaust gasses.

FF

Sorry I didn't get a chance to proof read this, have to get back to work.
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  #185  
Old 08-18-2011, 05:48 PM
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The in-depth analasis given may all be true, but I have also found that almost any 4 or 6 cyl engine will have to rev higher and work harder to match a large displacement low RPM v8.... And when you add boosting you are also adding compression and strain on the piston rings and rod and crank bearings, and if using engine oil to cool the turbos, your also increasing engine temps and oil temps, and oil change interval times... Your adding more compoents to wear out or that may need attention or maintenance.... I'll stick with a good old 2 valve V8 whenever I can... Less is often more.... If the Eco 6 is faster oh well, My truck wasn't purchased to race at Indy, and I bet my Hemi will outlast any ECO with less repair costs
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  #186  
Old 08-18-2011, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. HP and torque are developed through the mechanical transformation of force from heat created by a burning fuel. Fuel potential energy is commonly expressed in BTU's, British Thermal Units. Since BTU's and HP are both a measure of power, they can be compared, apples to apples. Specifically, 1HP/hour = 2545 BTU's/hour. Gas has 114,000 BTU's per gallon. using your example of a 500hp engine, we will find that in order to develop 500 hp for an hour, an engine will need to burn more than 11.16 gallons of fuel. the amount more than is the exactly 11.16 gallons divided by the efficiency of the motor is question. This number will be expressed in a value greater than 0 and less than 1. I can't find the study, but the US government studied internal combustion engines and found that the most efficient they can get is 85%. in our equasion, .85 would be the number that we divide 11.16 by.

NOTE: 85% includes robbing every available btu of heat expelled through the exhaust, so in a real world vehicle that doesn't do heat recovery, the number will be less that 85% or .85.

So if our engines both have an efficiency of 85% then they would both need to burn 13.13 gallons of fuel in order to produce 500 hp for an hour.

Now lets talk about engine efficiency. the engine efficiency is a variable described by how well the engine mixes fuel, burns that fuel and recovers energy by that fuel. the biggest source of waste are light, that is generated by the fuel burn, heat/preasure that is not being used once the exhaust leaves the burn chamber and friction from bearing surfaces.

Since you cannot mitigate the light created by the burn, the only variables that we can manipulate are friction and heat/preasure loss.

We can recover lost power through reducing friction and this has been demonstrated by use of superior lubricants, like Royal Purpal and the various other synthetic oils that are produced, frankly I don't remember them all. the Average v8 gets about 5hp gain from. 4 and 6 cylinder engines have less of an advantage because they have less friction from less moving parts.

This leaves us with finding a way to use the heat/preassure expelled from the burn chamber. The current way this is done is through a Turbo Charger. A turbo charger uses this wasted energy to pump and compress intake air before forcing it into the burn chamber.

So, given everything being equal, a small turbo charged engine producing a given horse power and torque will burn less fuel than a larger engine producing the same horse power and torque, because the smaller engine haas lest internal resistance and uses the wasted power lost from expelled exhaust gasses.

FF

Sorry I didn't get a chance to proof read this, have to get back to work.
In my example I was talking about NA...forced induction I understand is another story...If both were naturally aspirated, my example is correct (all else being equal). As far as you saying that the 4 cylinder smaller engine having less advantage to gain back frictional losses, well they started out with less loss to begin with, so I don't see that as a disadvantage....in the end they will have less frictional loss. Also most all modern internal combustion engines are around 40-60% efficient. I agree more parts means more PITA and more things to go wrong.
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  #187  
Old 08-18-2011, 06:13 PM
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This is the negative aspect of turbo charging an engine; turboes require the use of engine oil for lubrication. Turbos spin at about 10,000 rpm at lower engine speeds, but can spool up to around 100,000 rpms under hard acceleration or high engine speeds. This amount of fluctuation is why turbos can produce more power than superchargers. This is also the reason turbos may need to be replaced before a supercharger though. Yes turbos create more heat because 1 they are exhaust driven and 2 they spin so fast. Compressing air causes heat which is why they invented the intercooler. Typically an engine with forced induction will not live as long, notice I say typically, our will require more repairs, again typically. I myself like turbos and I have owned a turbo car in the past , but I know the expenses of when your turbo loses the bearings also.
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  #188  
Old 08-18-2011, 07:18 PM
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I don't need so much justifications as to why I decided to buy my RAM vs the Ecoboost I almost ordered: I don't care loosing 1000 lbs towing, 300 lbs payload and being 20 feet behind drag racing ! At the end of the day, I feel rested after a long ride, I love the ergonomics and I can have a beer looking at my truck and feel this is still the best looking half ton truck bar none on the market !!! I don't need more !

Cheers !!!
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  #189  
Old 08-18-2011, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theweavman View Post
I think you may find that engines with twin turbos, require more frequent oil changes, can get very expensive to repair, and run hotter....any six has to work harder to try and match a larger cu in V/8...... I rather have a large V/8 that is running easy than any smaller engine that is working hard...to obtain the same result.....but I'm an old school kinda guy...there is nothing new here, Buick had a Grand National model in the late 60's, that ran a turbo V/6, and it blew the doors off everything back then, even a Corvette.....

Wasn't it late 80?

Like 87 or 88?
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  #190  
Old 08-18-2011, 07:32 PM
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yes it was 80's. grand national in the 60's and 70's ran big block's, and was also one of the fastest cars of its time.
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