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Custom Dodge Ram Performance Mods - Engine - 5.7 HEMI V8 Discuss modifying your Dodge Ram with Performance Parts and Accessories!
Factory Spec: 5.7-liter HEMI® V8 engine - 390 horsepower, 407 lb-ft of torque.


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  #111  
Old 01-09-2012, 02:26 PM
TransEngineer TransEngineer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadioFlyer View Post
You are welcome TE and thank you for your tech input. SC is the Superchip programmer that has a torque management tune that reduces the factory 75% (?) T/M to as low as 6%..
Ah! OK, Superchips it is. Sorry, I'm not familiar with most aftermarket mods.

There is always a torque disturbance during a shift. Typically, on an upshift, there is a dip in output torque, followed by a spike, and then finally torque settles down to some new (lower) value (due to the change in gear ratio). The spike is caused by the engine speed change, which adds an inertial torque (due to the inertia of the engine's rotating parts) to the trans input torque. Basically, in order to slow the engine down (while the throttle is still open), the trans has to apply a "brake" to the engine. That "brake" is actually the wheels and geartrain (which are being coupled to the engine with a new [lower numerical] gear ratio, thereby forcing the engine to slow down). It's like engaging the clutch on a manual trans - the engine is going at a fairly high speed, while the driveline is going at a very low (or zero) speed. When the clutch connects them, either the engine has to slow way down, or the wheels have to speed up. In reality, both happen. But what slows the engine down is the inertia of the vehicle. Likewise, the engine inertia provides a "kick" to the driveline to get the vehicle moving. In the case of an auto trans upshift, the engine inertia (from the speed change during the shift) provides an extra torque "kick".

Torque management (TM) reduces the engine's output torque, reducing this "kick" and giving you a smoother shift. For example, let's say your engine is producing 300 ft-lbs of torque, and then at an upshift, the speed change produces an inertial torque of 150 ft-lbs. During the speed change, the trans input torque will be 450 ft-lbs (giving you a momentary "kick"). But if the PCM cuts the engine torque back by 50% (to 150 ft-lbs) during the speed change, then the overall trans input torque will remain at 300 ft-lbs. So the shift can be smoother.

I'm guessing that what you call a "firm" shift is one where you can feel this inertial torque "kick". So yes, reducing the amount of TM will give you a "firmer" shift. But shift quality is also affected by other factors (how rapidly the speed change is made, how much overlap exists during the clutch handoff, etc.) and these factors will be affected by changes in line pressure. So changing TM and changing LP can BOTH affect shift quality. Even if the effects of "boosted" LP wear off (e.g., are learned out) over time, changes to TM would still have an affect on shift quality.

Hope that makes sense....
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  #112  
Old 01-09-2012, 02:42 PM
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Sorry got one in mine and im glad i got it for free i notice 0 difference
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  #113  
Old 01-09-2012, 03:06 PM
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Sorry got one in mine and im glad i got it for free i notice 0 difference
No punt intended...why do you still have it in there?
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  #114  
Old 01-09-2012, 03:28 PM
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No punt intended...why do you still have it in there?
Lol to lazy to take out and its been raining non stop
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  #115  
Old 01-09-2012, 03:57 PM
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Thank you for the eplanation TE...it makes perfect sense. For the rest of you, I'm not here to dispute whether it works or not for you. I'm questiong the theory of whether or not the pcm eventually overides the sonnax when it doesn't overide SC T/M tuning. And last and with all do respect to TE, all clutches slip...that's what they are there for. They serve the same purpose in autos as they do in standards. Respectfully, unless you have a stage 111 Nag1 race transmission or equal/better, your clutch setup is made to slip. If they didn't it would feel like you were rearended every time it shifted. Chrys stock TCM/PCM controlls 75% of your stock T/M by lowering line pressure and de throttlng rpms at WOT...together they suck. I cant say whether or not the sonnax conflicts with SC or vice versa but imo they both serve their purpose well. I don't drive my truck hard so instead of dogging my truck I spend an extra 5 min simply reloading and refreshing my tune when I feel like playing. Plz excuse me for being blunt, I'm doing this from my phone...thank you.

Last edited by RadioFlyer; 01-09-2012 at 04:05 PM.
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  #116  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:30 PM
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The pcm will not adjust the torque management back to factory settings with an aftermarket tuner installed because the tuner actually changes the pcm's parameters. After you install the aftermarket tune, which has the new TM values, the pcm see's this as "factory setting". This is different from the sonnax because the sonnax is just a resistor in the wiring harness that "tricks" the pcm. Eventually the pcm will figure out this trick and adjust the line pressure back to factory settings.

That is what I'm gathering from this thread...

Also, superchips confirmed that using the sonnax with their tuner will not cause problems, just FYI.

Something else that hasn't been talked about is that superchips also shortens the "shift time duration", or the amount of time it takes to complete a shift. I don't know exactly what effect this has on clutch slippage or overall transmission life, but don't see how it could hurt too much, as it just makes it switch faster. It does feel a bit "firmer" (or "harsher" if you're a grandma, lol) though. I have been using the superchips performance tune, with stock TM setting, and it feels very firm and good. Not as firm as with TM lowered, but still very good. With the TM lowered it was about perfect IMO, it shifted VERY fast and firm.
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  #117  
Old 01-09-2012, 11:31 PM
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thanks. might have to give this one a try
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  #118  
Old 01-10-2012, 09:38 AM
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Looks like a simple mod. Does upping the line pressure create more heat in the transmission?
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  #119  
Old 01-10-2012, 10:05 AM
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RadioFlyer,

Yes, the clutches have to slip during shifts. What I meant was that the clutches should have ZERO slip once the shift is complete (that is, while you're in a particular gear). Some folks on here seemed to wonder whether their clutches were slipping a little bit ALL THE TIME, and whether increasing LP would "fix" that. My point was that clutches do not slip all the time (even at stock LP), so this isn't a "problem" that needs to be fixed. If your clutches are slipping all the time, you need more than an LP "booster".

BgHrn,

There is a relationship between LP and heat generation, but it's very complicated. Higher LP will generate some additional heat (not a huge amount), but that is not as big an effect as how the higher LP affects cooler flow. According to Brad's observations, running higher LP gave him a cooler sump, so apparently (in his case) the higher LP caused an increase in cooler flow. Our own observations have shown that there is not a linear relationship between LP and cooler flow; in some cases I believe increasing LP actually decreases cooler flow (I don't have the data in front of me though). But it's hard to argue with Brad's results. Guess you'll have to try it and see.....
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  #120  
Old 01-10-2012, 03:42 PM
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TE,
I guess I'm still interested in your opinion, based on your technical and real world experience, what is the best solution to the problem that many of us are experiencing---slow and sloppy shifts. I realize that a "firm" shift can mean different thing to different people, but you have to agree based on driving one of these vehicles that the shifts are in fact "slow and sloppy". Is there a cure or is it just the nature of these tranmissions? I don't believe that anyone is talking about a racing application here, just looking to "improve" the shifting. It reminds me of the old DynoFlow transmission that just sort of slid into gear instead of really shifting.
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