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View Poll Results: Do you think chrysler should build a balance shaft hemi..?
YES, i agree 10 47.62%
NO, i disagree 11 52.38%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 12-24-2011, 09:52 AM
Rambunkshuss Rambunkshuss is offline
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Default MDS Hemi with balance shafts...! YES OR NO, Do you agree...?

So when do you think we`ll see a 5.7 hemi come with balance shafts in the engine to get rid of all the torsional vibrations that this MDS technology is causing. If it were to happen, i hope they use a helical cut gear drive type system...! (then we can listen to everybody whine about the gear whine...lol) A helical cut gear drive would be stronger over a chain drive version, and we wouldnt have to worry about drive chains or plastic chain guides having to be replaced all the time (or breaking, causing sever engine damage) Even if they put a fluid harmonic balancer on the crankshaft, i would think that would help tremendously...! A smoother engine will ALWAYS gain mpg`s. So with adding balance shafts, sure, it would take some HP to run the added gears & shafts, but the offset would be, better mpg`s from a smoother running engine, so that would already remedy that issue. Its a proven fact that it DOES work, and work very well on other engines. Hell even a harley engine has balance shafts in them. I would think chrysler engineers would be giving this some deep thought anyway.

I put a voting poll on this topic, so toss a vote in there and lets see who agree`s on the idea of the torsionally balanced hemi. If you agree or disagree, please post a thread in here why or why not, you think it would or wouldnt benefit the hemi engines.

Last edited by Rambunkshuss; 12-24-2011 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 12-24-2011, 11:21 AM
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A balance shaft would only add weight, use up HP, add complication, add to the cost, and would net almost ZERO effect.

The Hemi does not have a balance issue when in MDS mod. Being a V8 first, it is designed to operate at lower RPMs than the traditional 4cyl engine, so when MDS kick in (typically at lower speeds as the power requirement is reduced), the lower RPM coupled with any demand for power allows us to feel the cylinder firing. This is not so much a balance issue, it's more of an awareness of the power strokes. If you have a very quiet exhaust, this awareness is reduced significantly; a symptom not typical of a balance issue.
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:26 PM
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I agree with brad's assessment here. I had a couple of those really great but really rough running GM 4.3 V-6 engines over the years. That engine does have an inherent imbalance in its design in the rotating assembly, but it oddly doesn't seem to affect the reliability or longevity of the engine. My wife had an '01 Blazer S-10 that had the balancer system, and it was smooth.

Like brad states, the hemi isn't an unbalanced design in this V-8 setup, and I think he's right that the "feel" of the MDS that many notice and in some cases complain about isn't an imbalance issue in the rotating assembly. And it would seem if you tried to address an imbalance with a balancer assembly "if" it was occuring because of MDS or similar cylinder dropping function, you'd get a more horrible imbalance once the engine went back to "normal" operation. So, then you could come up with this fancy balancer cutout system to combat the imbalance at all-cylinder firing. LOL!...a never-ending cycle.
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:34 PM
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I have problems with Drive Shaft.
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Old 12-24-2011, 01:25 PM
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Ramtx, that can definitely be a problem, but I think the OP's scenario mainly involves engine rotating assembly issues that a counter-balancer is sometimes used to alleviate. Some automotive and many single-cylinder motorcycle engines use the counter-balancer with great success. It's not something you want, however, if it's not totally necessary...extra internal friction in the engine, more weight, more complexity, and more potential service issues. Where they're needed, they can work quite well.
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Old 12-24-2011, 02:41 PM
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Got to agree with Brad12kx's assessment, I think he is spot on.
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Old 12-25-2011, 01:43 PM
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Just food for thought....
Do some of you actually KNOW, what a "balance shaft" actually does and its purpose...?

What Are Balance Shafts and their intended purpose ?

Balance shafts are most common in inline four cylinder (straight-4) engines which, due to the asymmetry of their design, have an inherent "second order vibration" (vibrating at twice the engine RPM) which, contrary to popular belief, cannot be eliminated no matter how well the internal components are balanced. This vibration is generated because the movement of the connecting rods in an inline engine is not symmetrical throughout the crankshaft rotation; thus during a given period of crankshaft rotation, the descending pistons and ascending pistons are not always completely opposed in their acceleration, giving rise to a net vertical inertial force twice in each revolution whose intensity increases exponentially with RPM, no matter how closely the components are matched for weight.


The problem increases with larger engine displacement, since the only ways to achieve larger displacement are with a longer piston stroke, increasing the difference in acceleration, or by a larger bore, increasing the mass of the pistons; either way, the magnitude of the inertial vibration increases. For many years, two litres was viewed as the 'unofficial' displacement limit for a production inline four cylinder engine with acceptable NVH characteristics. The development of the General Motors 2.3 litre Quad 4 engine in 1987, described as "rough as a cob" by one automotive reviewer, and its subsequent development into the much more positively received 2.4 litre version with balance shafts confirms the wisdom of this assessment.
The basic concept behind balance shafts has existed for nearly a century and is no longer patentable. Two balance shafts rotate in opposite directions at twice engine speed. Equally sized eccentric weights on these shafts are sized and phased so that the inertial reaction to their counter-rotation cancels out in the horizontal plane, but adds in the vertical plane, giving a net force equal to but 180 degrees out of phase with the undesired second-order vibration of the basic engine, thereby canceling it. (Some motorcycle enthusiasts believe that Honda's original application of this technology to their V-twin motorcycle engine overly damped out the vibration, giving an excessively 'dead' feel, so that they later reduced the size of the balance shafts in order to furnish the rider with some feedback as to engine speed).


So do you still think balance shafts cant work in a hemi engine...? I would have to disagree that they wouldnt work or benefit the hemi engine. But in any case, lets keep the debate going... its very interesting to me and how people persieve a hemi with balance shaft vs. no balance shafts.


As for the hemi and how it vibrates while in MDS mode, imagine driving a stick shift at 20mph while still in 5th gear...same effect happens. It lugs down and just chugs along because the rpm`s are to low for it to make any power to overcome the vibration issue.
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Old 12-25-2011, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambunkshuss View Post
Just food for thought....
Do some of you actually KNOW, what a "balance shaft" actually does and its purpose...?
^^^^ Ah yes or I would not have posted. But nice explanation BTW and nothing wrong with a good healthy debate. FYI I am getting no noticable/bothersome vibration when MDS kicks in it just feels like a four cylinder engine as it putts along.
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Last edited by RansRAM; 12-25-2011 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 12-25-2011, 07:02 PM
Rambunkshuss Rambunkshuss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RansRAM View Post
^^^^ Ah yes or I would not have posted. But nice explanation BTW and nothing wrong with a good healthy debate. FYI I am getting no noticable/bothersome vibration when MDS kicks in it just feels like a four cylinder engine as it putts along.
Ahhh yes, i too agree RansRam, with healthy debates, and thank you for contributing. I just hope this one dosent turn into a pizzing contest like most other posts do on most forums.

Guyz....
the only reason i thought of starting a post like this, its because i`ve owned and drove MANY mds hemi trucks (more than you know) and alot of them vibrate terrible when the mds mode kicks in. (can be felt either thru the sterring wheel, seats, gas pedal, or all 3 at once at certain rpm`s) (& not to be confused with the "star case" torque convertor shudder rattle drone issue thats going around, this mds vibe is totally different from that, BUT the bad TC does seem to enhance the vibes worse) What i dont really want to happen here, is what usually happens on these forums, people will judgmentally tell you that you are wrong (about the mds vibrations) just because their`s dosent do it.(not mean`t towards RansRam either) Well i`m here to tell anyone that thinks these trucks dont have vibration issues while in mds mode, they certainly havent drove enough of them to know what i`m talkin about. If it has mds, then they ALL do it, some are just ALOT worse than others. (by the way, i`m only talkin about the mds in the hemi trucks, NOT chargers, challengers or 300 sedans) I started the post by wondering about opinions on the hemi if it were to become a balancer shaft type of engine, and if people agree that this would help the engine vibrations or not. Lets leave the $$cost$$ of what it would set us back, just opinions on whether balancershafts would be good for the hemi engine or not.

I read in here where some think it would rob horsepower, of course it`ll take some hp to run it, but not as much as you might think. Add weight, yes it would, BUT it would be so minimal. You`d be talkin maybe 10 or 15lb weight gain, maybe a 10 or 15hp loss to power the balancershafts. (based on 1hp per 1lb) An alternator alone robs more hp than the balancershafts would. You can easily pick up 15hp just by eliminating the viscous clutch fan and adding totally electric fans.

This is just my opinion, i would rather gain a few pounds and have an engine thats smooth as butter, than a lighter design that sends vibrations all over the place. I think we can all agree that a smoother engine is a happier engine... hence last alot longer, small percentage of mpg gains as well. I also know with tuners they have available today, and exhaust, you could simply get a big boost in horsepower back easily enough if it really bothered you. Ther`s lots of things that could be done to gain hp, and not spend a fortune doing it either.

Last edited by Rambunkshuss; 12-25-2011 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 12-25-2011, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad12kx View Post
A balance shaft would only add weight, use up HP, add complication, add to the cost, and would net almost ZERO effect.

The Hemi does not have a balance issue when in MDS mod. Being a V8 first, it is designed to operate at lower RPMs than the traditional 4cyl engine, so when MDS kick in (typically at lower speeds as the power requirement is reduced), the lower RPM coupled with any demand for power allows us to feel the cylinder firing. This is not so much a balance issue, it's more of an awareness of the power strokes. If you have a very quiet exhaust, this awareness is reduced significantly; a symptom not typical of a balance issue.
Brad, i dont think i ever said the engine is out of balance. What i`m getting at, is torsional vibrations.
Go back and read where i have written; What Are Balance Shafts and their intended purpose ? POST #7
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