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View Poll Results: Do you think chrysler should build a balance shaft hemi..?
YES, i agree 10 47.62%
NO, i disagree 11 52.38%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 12-25-2011, 09:35 PM
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Well, I think I generally understand engine balancer systems, maybe better described as counterbalancing systems...at least as well as the Wikipedia text you cited here...and it's a decent description that they provide. What in our responses caused you to ask if we even understood what the system involved? I've had automotive and motorcycle engines with the system and have even had some of those engines apart and had to reinstall and time the balancing system.

Still, this system is almost always used to address an engine design that has an inherent imbalance in the design of the rotating assembly...crank, rods, and pistons particularly...an assymetrical combination of how those components rotate in or out of balance as a whole. Your wiki article didn't even mention V-8's and such, though I'm sure you could find one somewhere with an oddball crank design. Our hemi is not one of those inherently imbalanced engines in this category.

I still go back to my question in my first post. If you could design a balancer system that would address the MDS vibration when MDS is functioning, what will you do to disable the system when all 8 cylinders are firing normally? I still think these systems are mainly designed for engines that have assymetric design and placement of their major rotating components that are causing annoying vibration. Our hemi is in relative design balance. The vibration from MDS might indeed be addressable, but perhaps it would be by some other cancelling effect by another method...not the full-time function of a conventional engine balancer system...at least the ones I've seen anything about.

Interesting discussion...as long as we realize that few of us here are engineers, but it will do until a real, bonafide, fire-breathing engineer arrives to set us straight...LOL!
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:12 AM
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I was trying to keep my explanation short and sweet.

The Hemi being a 90 degree V8 engine with power strokes at every 90 degrees of crank shaft rotation is operationally inherently balanced by design. When the MDS system deactivates cyl 1,4,6 & 7, (every second cyl in the firing order), the engine still maintains operationally inherent balance as not only are the power strokes at every 180 deg of engine rotation, but every power stroke is 90 off axis from the previous. This is a huge difference from an inline 4 cyl engine where although the power strokes are at 180 deg of crank rotation, they are in the same vertical plane.

Although the V8 benefits hugely from this 90 deg power stroke offset, there still remains parasitic deflection in the vertical direction, however it is not a direct vertical deflection, but rather a sinusoidal or oscillating deflection. This also plays a huge roll in why the 90 deg V8 design is capable of such smooth operation....especially when running on all 8.

Could this deflection (and associated 'vibration') be reduced with the deployment of balance shafts...Absolutely! Similar results could achieved by increasing the mass of the engine, but for purpose of staying on topic, I'll limit my discussion to the balance shaft(s).

In order to achieve a vibration reduction using balance shafts, you would likely require 6 balance shafts. 2 would be required to be aligned with each cylinder bank rotating in opposite directions so as not to add vibration in the + and - 90deg plan from the bank. Then an additional 2 would be required aligned to the vertical plane, and carefully adjusted to be slightly out of phase to contract the sinusoidal deflection mentioned earlier. (I can only assume this can be done with only 2....but have never tested this in the real world).

If you install the 2 shafts per bank, why would you need the extra 2+? After all, if you have reduced/eliminated the effects of the power strokes with the bank shafts, there should be nothing left to cause the sinusoidal deflection and associated vibration!
Well......If your going through all the trouble to design a balance shaft system to reduce the effect of MDS, why would you stop there? Might as well complete the job and remove the minimal vibration caused by the rotating mass and get rid of the harmonic balancer which is nothing more than a inexpensive and somewhat effective replacement for a balance shaft system.

To answer your question -
Quote:
So when do you think we`ll see a 5.7 hemi come with balance shafts in the engine to get rid of all the torsional vibrations that this MDS technology is causing.
Never!

I am not disputing the fact that balance shaft systems have been deployed with excellent results on some engines. But in these cases, there is an inherent imbalance that virtually dictated the necessity of balance shafts. In the case of the Harley engines, they actually did it too well to start with, and had to reduce the effect of the balance shafts to give the operator some 'seat of the pants' feedback as to what RPM the engine was turning at, so they obviously work.

In the case of the Hemi -
a) the additional cost to deploy such a system would increase the cost of the engine (likely not going to be very popular)
b) would increase the weight of the engine (which would further reduce the payload of the truck)
c) would add additional complexity to an already complex engine (DIY is tough enough as it is)
d) would reduce the available HP by whatever amount the balance shafts used (IDK about you, but I didn't buy the Hemi because of it's Rolls Royce super smooth engine operation)

And to add to all of this, the balance shafts would have to change in mass between MDS and non-MDS mode, or the vibration would become an 8cyl characteristic at more then double the effect!

Simply, it does not make sense to deploy this type of expensive complexity to an engine that really doesn't have a problem to begin with. Is there a small amount of vibration from the engine when MDS is activated - YES! But even with the factory Alpine sound system, I can drown out this vibration at even a modest listening level, and the Alpine Sub is not that punchy.
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  #13  
Old 12-26-2011, 09:35 AM
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I talked to the service director last week and he said after talking to the factory rep, dodge is coming out with some type of frame attached torsional damper for the exhaust system, he wasn't very specific as to when it would be available but he would let me know asap when he has more info let's hope it's soon
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:28 AM
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Well explained, brad. I ran out of steam before getting to the much meatier application of balancer systems like you did...LOL!

Big Al, that's an interesting comment about the torsional damper. In my post that's what I was kind of touching on about MDS feedback perhaps being addressable by some other means than an engine balancer system...which I don't believe is applicable here.

From another angle, you know Chrysler has had to have done some study on this issue over time now. The method that some hemi owners are using to disable MDS...other than by a tuner on applicable models...with engaging tow/haul mode or clicking down one button position on the shifter seems to work. However, I'm wondering if Chrysler has done testing that shows it adversely affects mileage too much to disable MDS except during highway and overall higher speed use. I read here where some claim fuel mileage to increase when they disabled MDS, but frankly I think more is going on there than meets the eye. I don't think Chrysler would keep MDS active throughout the driving range if it hadn't produce an increase in mileage. You just know they're aware of some of the complaints about MDS drone, shudder, and vibration. The easiest fix would be to just disable MDS until some higher vehicle speed is attained. Still, I don't find either the transmission or MDS to be particularly annoying. I can detect it in some situations, but I don't get bucking and serious vibration like some have described here. Plus, and I'm not trying to piss anyone off here, in the cases where there's not a malfunction of some kind, I think some owners are just hypersensitive by nature to "anything" that doesn't deliver an almost electric motor-like delivery...whether it's the engine, tranny, or other elements in the vehicle that roll, rotate, or move. I'm not saying we should settle for something that rattles our fillings, but a pickup isn't a Bentley or Rolls...LOL! Or...is there a manual transmission option for the 1500 Ram?...LOL!
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad12kx View Post

1) Could this deflection (and associated 'vibration') be reduced with the deployment of balance shafts...Absolutely!


2) To answer your question -
Never!

3) In the case of the Harley engines, they actually did it too well to start with, and had to reduce the effect of the balance shafts to give the operator some 'seat of the pants' feedback as to what RPM the engine was turning at, so they obviously work.

4) In the case of the Hemi -
IDK about you, but I didn't buy the Hemi because of it's Rolls Royce super smooth engine operation


5) Simply, it does not make sense to deploy this type of expensive complexity to an engine that really doesn't have a problem to begin with. Is there a small amount of vibration from the engine when MDS is activated - YES! But even with the factory Alpine sound system, I can drown out this vibration at even a modest listening level, and the Alpine Sub is not that punchy.

1) CORRECT...!

2) Dont bet on it. Ther`s MANY complaints of mds vibration`s.

3) It wasnt harley this happened to, it was honda.
(Fact: harley got it right the first time when they introduced it in the 2000 beta engine)

4) The hemi engine IS very smooth UNTIL the mds kicks in.

5) It DOES have a problem...the mds IS causing vibrations.
Two of your sentences in #5 above, kind of conterdict each other.
"doesn't have a problem to begin with. Is there a small amount of
vibration from the engine when MDS is activated - YES!
"



Drown out the vibration(s) with your alpine stereo...???
Vibrations are felt, not heard usually, but i guess in your case,
just buy a bigger stereo is the fix...lol

Thank you for your contribution brad
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNC View Post
Big Al, that's an interesting comment about the torsional damper. In my post that's what I was kind of touching on about MDS feedback perhaps being addressable by some other means than an engine balancer system...which I don't believe is applicable here.
I`m already workin on an external damper system for the mds hemi,
just a matter of time to perfect it. Its still in the testing phases as we speak.
So far, it showing us VERY GOOD progress that it will work very well...!!!! We are also looking into motor & tranny mount materials, to also combat the vibrations.

Now if we could only develope the mds mode to sound like a V8 while in use...!!!
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambunkshuss View Post
1) CORRECT...!

2) Dont bet on it. Ther`s MANY complaints of mds vibration`s.

3) It wasnt harley this happened to, it was honda.
(Fact: harley got it right the first time when they introduced it in the 2000 beta engine)

4) The hemi engine IS very smooth UNTIL the mds kicks in.

5) It DOES have a problem...the mds IS causing vibrations.
Two of your sentences in #5 above, kind of conterdict each other.
"doesn't have a problem to begin with. Is there a small amount of
vibration from the engine when MDS is activated - YES!
"



Drown out the vibration(s) with your alpine stereo...???
Vibrations are felt, not heard usually, but i guess in your case,
just buy a bigger stereo is the fix...lol

Thank you for your contribution brad
I don't for a minute deny that there are complaints about the 'feel' and the 'sound' of the MDS, but in reality, this is a truck! For those that complain about it not being the smoothest vehicle they have ever driven, they really need to carefully consider their purchase decision. I've spoken about this 'human' issue before with regard to the transmission, where the shifting has been slowed down to smooth it out, BUT, the heat generated by this slow shifting causes heat which is simply not good for the trans. In a truck application, we SHOULD be purchasing it because we need it to do work, not prissy foot around the dance floor looking pretty. If someone doesn't like the rough and rugged feel of a truck, then don't buy one.

To Dodge - Please don't cave to unrealistic demand for a truck that rides and operates like a luxury car. For those of us that buy a truck for work applications are the ones that are truly suffering in the end when the truck becomes a facade rather then a working tool.

Are you sure about Harley? Were they not the first to figure out the negative side of 'Too Smooth' and unlike Honda made the appropriate adjustments 'prior' to releasing the design to the public. I know Honda figured that out later in the game, when they discovered there is such a thing as 'Too Smooth'. LOL

The Hemi engine does run very smooth even in MDS, however under acceleration in MDS mode, you can feel the power strokes which closely emulate the same feeling you get when driving a 4cyl engine under load at too low an RPM....it's a lugging feeling. I do not consider this to be a problem, but rather a characteristic. I knew when I used the word vibration to describe this, that I was using the wrong word....although this lugging feeling as also a 'vibration' by it's truest definition. It's one of those things where even with all the words available, finding the right one can sometimes prove to be as challenging as convincing your neighbor that a truck is work tool, not a trophy to display in your driveway.

In my case, the lugging feeling is easily drown out by the 'Vibration' of the Alpine sub, and 'Drone' is easily drown out by the remainder of the speakers in the audio system. This is accomplished a low enough sound level to carry on a conversation in the cab.....which is one more reason I do not consider this to be a problem. The minor cracks in the road transfer a greater vibration to the 'seat dyno' then the MDS does.

BTW - Great thread! I had not ever considered the deployment of a balanced shaft system in any V8, let alone the Hemi. But the more thought I give this, the more I believe this would be about the worst thing that could be done to the Hemi....or any V8 for that matter. I think we will see electric motor systems long before we see balance shafts in any V8, and after driving a Chevy Hybrid truck; I for one am not looking forward to that day......Too Smooth!
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Old 12-27-2011, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad12kx View Post
I don't for a minute deny that there are complaints about the 'feel' and the 'sound' of the MDS, but in reality, this is a truck! For those that complain about it not being the smoothest vehicle they have ever driven, they really need to carefully consider their purchase decision. I've spoken about this 'human' issue before with regard to the transmission, where the shifting has been slowed down to smooth it out, BUT, the heat generated by this slow shifting causes heat which is simply not good for the trans. In a truck application, we SHOULD be purchasing it because we need it to do work, not prissy foot around the dance floor looking pretty. If someone doesn't like the rough and rugged feel of a truck, then don't buy one.

To Dodge - Please don't cave to unrealistic demand for a truck that rides and operates like a luxury car. For those of us that buy a truck for work applications are the ones that are truly suffering in the end when the truck becomes a facade rather then a working tool.

Are you sure about Harley? Were they not the first to figure out the negative side of 'Too Smooth' and unlike Honda made the appropriate adjustments 'prior' to releasing the design to the public. I know Honda figured that out later in the game, when they discovered there is such a thing as 'Too Smooth'. LOL

The Hemi engine does run very smooth even in MDS, however under acceleration in MDS mode, you can feel the power strokes which closely emulate the same feeling you get when driving a 4cyl engine under load at too low an RPM....it's a lugging feeling. I do not consider this to be a problem, but rather a characteristic. I knew when I used the word vibration to describe this, that I was using the wrong word....although this lugging feeling as also a 'vibration' by it's truest definition. It's one of those things where even with all the words available, finding the right one can sometimes prove to be as challenging as convincing your neighbor that a truck is work tool, not a trophy to display in your driveway.

In my case, the lugging feeling is easily drown out by the 'Vibration' of the Alpine sub, and 'Drone' is easily drown out by the remainder of the speakers in the audio system. This is accomplished a low enough sound level to carry on a conversation in the cab.....which is one more reason I do not consider this to be a problem. The minor cracks in the road transfer a greater vibration to the 'seat dyno' then the MDS does.

BTW - Great thread! I had not ever considered the deployment of a balanced shaft system in any V8, let alone the Hemi. But the more thought I give this, the more I believe this would be about the worst thing that could be done to the Hemi....or any V8 for that matter. I think we will see electric motor systems long before we see balance shafts in any V8, and after driving a Chevy Hybrid truck; I for one am not looking forward to that day......Too Smooth!
Brad,
you must be one of the lucky few people that dont have one of these trucks where the mds will just buzz your teeth out of your mouth when its in mds mode. I`ll tell ya dude, i`ve drove quite a few that will just make you wanna cry for buying it, some are THAT bad when it kicks into mds mode. I`m working with a friend of mine that i work with, his mds is so bad, he is just livid for ever buying the truck. (his isnt the only one i`ve road tested that is this bad either) My truck has the same issue, BUT, it isnt near as bad as his is. His truck feels like it came out of a porn shop after they installed vibrators in his seat and the steering wheel, AND the gas pedal. Its really bad dude, his is the worst i`ve seen yet out of all the ones i have drivin. After driving & testing a few others, i notice the mds vibrations vary between all of them, some ok, some are definatly not. This vibration dosen`t seem to hit until you get a few hundred miles on the truck from brand new, so as for your comment on knowing this when a person buys the truck brand new, and that one should have known this would happen because its a truck, thats weak brother. Had i known these trucks would get worse, it might have changed the deal before buying it. Trust me, people aren`t just going to go ahead an buy a vehicle knowing it will have problems or issues, especially for what we pay for these vehicles today.

As to your comment about buying a truck to be used as a truck, i have to highly disagree with you ther buddie. I`ve never bought or owned a truck to be a "working tool". Some people buy a truck just for the sake of looks alone and never use it for the purpose of just a work vehicle. I am one of those in that particular catagory... i never haul or tow anything with my truck, i bought it because i like the looks, i dont use it for anything else but a daily driver vehicle. Ther is ALOT more people today that dont buy a truck to use it as a truck. So with saying that, ther ARE some that just buy them to be driveway queens. I guess thats what i bought mine for then...a driveway queen and lovin it.(lol) I buy trucks because thats what i like driving, and not one truck that i`ve ever owned has ever had anything put or laid in the box. Not even dust..!(lol) Also, i would bet money, that most people that own a HEMI R/T truck, do not use them as a truck, or your term, "working tool". Some people will buy them to be show trucks, or just to have a toy to play with without ever using it as a truck.

Yes, i`m sure about what i said about harley. I am very deep into the harley world. One of my best friends is an engineer for harley. I usually know whats going on with them before the actual assembly line people even do. I also build alot of screamin eagle race engines, so i`m very up on whats going on with harley, and alot of other motorcycle manufactuers with research & development as well, and for many many years.

Re: "I had not ever considered the deployment of a balanced shaft system in any V8"
Dont knock it until you`ve tried it. Silent balance shafts could possibly work very well in V8 engines. Ther happens to be some very exotic V8 race engines out there today that have silent balance shafts in them. (any i`ve seen, are gear drivin)

Your comment about "too smooth".... ther again i happen to disagree.
I dont think people would buy a vehicle if it wasnt smooth to a certain degree. That was the biggest selling point when i bought my very first hemi truck, it was smooth as butter. I highly dought, that a person goes into a dealership and asking them for the roughest most vibrating new truck on the lot(lol) Whats the first question a hemi truck buyer is asked on a test drive with these new hemi trucks when he lets his ford and chevy buddies test drive it, "wow, i cant believe how smooth it is...!" Thats why my friend bought one. He took mine for a drive and couldnt comment enough on how smooth it was, and this was a guy that was hardcore chevy and hated dodge`s. So now, he`s gotta brand new 2011 hemi truck and hating how bad his vibrates after adding 4,000 miles onto it and mine dosent vibrate like his does and mine has 33,000 miles and still kinda smooth with the exception to the mds vibes. Now he`s a dodge hater because the mds is horrible in his truck. He`s been back to the dealer several times, he`s now looking into legal actions to possibly make them buy it back. I dont blame him, i`d be doing the same thing. I wouldnt put up with how bad his vibrates.

Thanks again brad, i rather enjoy this post too, it brings new thoughts and idea`s into somethin nobody else has ever asked before. You`re a pretty knowlegable person, and its great that we can agree to disagree on some things.
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:12 AM
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OK, to keep this discussion going a bit, let me ask this. Do the other hemi vehicles in the Chrysler line have MDS? I know I could start searching other forums and/or Chrysler product sites to try and find out, but I'm sure some here already know this. As I've mentioned a few times already, I'm totally new to Chrysler products. Are there similar complaints about other vehicles in the Chrysler line that may have MDS?
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Old 12-27-2011, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNC View Post
OK, to keep this discussion going a bit, let me ask this. Do the other hemi vehicles in the Chrysler line have MDS? I know I could start searching other forums and/or Chrysler product sites to try and find out, but I'm sure some here already know this. As I've mentioned a few times already, I'm totally new to Chrysler products. Are there similar complaints about other vehicles in the Chrysler line that may have MDS?
Yes, all the hemi vehicles from when the MDS was introduced into their particular lineup, with exception to the 2500 ram hemi truck which does not have mds. Any hemi that has mds, does vibrate, BUT ONCE AGAIN, some are alot more noticeable than others. We can debate the mds vibe issue all day long, but until the people that havent felt it with a hemi that has very bad mds vibes, they`ll never experience what some are feeling and then they usually end up disagreeing with people on here that HAVE felt it because theirs dosent vibrate as bad or hardly at all. To the people that dont have an issue with it, go drive one that DOES have bad mds vibe issues, then you`ll know what its all about.
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