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Discussion Starter #1
I'm making this post as a PSA. If anyone wants to argue over anything please take it to another thread.

To understand why the cam and lifters are failing in VVT hemis you have to understand something very basic. The cam to roller tappet surface is splash oiled with oil flung off the crankshaft. Its been noted by several posters on this forum that fleet vehicles that idle a lot seem to have more failures. My personal 5.7 sees a good amount of idling as well. Oil splash is lowest at idle. Hence the failures.

A little back story in my personal situation: I purchased a 2009 2500 5.7 hemi 4 door 4x4 long bed from texas cheap. 260K miles or so. Had no idea about hemi cam and lifter failures. I needed a crew cab and 3/4 ton or larger for towing and family etc. but had a budget that kept me away from almost everything. For the price I said to myself, if it needs an engine, trans or rear end its worth it for the clean body. By 262-265k miles a lifter had failed to the point of engine knocking and misfires on cyl. #5. Pulled the motor, new cam, upgraded lifters (i thought), all new gaskets, head job and cleaning/checking of the block bearings etc. etc. Back in business. Drove to 280k miles and i began to hear the dreaded cold start tick. Changed the oil and sure enough I could see some flakes in the oil filter. Pulled engine again and here we are. 5.7 failure 2.jpg 5.7 failure 3.jpg 5.7 failure 1.jpg




At first glance the lifters appear to be fine. But note the wear on the cam surface. After i dried some of the oil off the rollers on the lifters the problem became apparent. Several rollers in several lifters had rough spots. I also noticed axial play in some of the rollers. The lack of oil was pounding the roller in the lifter into submission but I cought it before a major failure. The wear on the camshaft shows the story, rollers were on a cam surface without oil. All the metal shavings in the filter, lifter bodies and in the VVT solenoid were very fine and NOT excessive.

So the solution is dedicated roller lifter axle oiling. 1 company makes them. Johnson lifters out of taylor, MI. https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters.aspx
Other companies claim to have "hemi upgraded lifters." I had a set of "those" in my engine. They do not solve the problem of no oil splash at idle!
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
So the next question we had was why do we not see these failures in 03-08 hemis? -All we (myself and 3 other knowledgeable, notable people in the industry) can come up with is billet camshafts and lack of VVT. The hemi was never designed for VVT originally, it was added later. It was designed with MDS originally.

Why does everyone claim the lifters are bad from the factory?-In my opinion they are not bad or a poor design. Nor do I think there were/are QC issues. I believe people see a locked up roller lifter with needle bearings and blame the first thing they see instead of actually identifying the problem. OR by the time the repair was performed identification of the cause may not be as easy to catch. I did it myself with my first set of lifters and forgot about it and drove my truck.

Why do some have zero problems when others have problems? -I cannot answer that, only guess. Myabe most people just start their hemi up, drop it in gear and drive. It seems backwards but I can see one of these lasting longer with people who do that.

5w-20 oil?-In my opinion chrysler knew something was up and recommended the 5w-20 oil as an easy stop gap for lifter life and emissions. With that water thin oil in a v8 it can splash off the crank and travel up to the cam easier. Where as I THINK the 03-08 engines recommended 5w-30.
 

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Not trying to argue- but... what do you want to say with this? Or do I just don't get it? Or do you actually asking a question?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
what do you want to say with this? Or do I just don't get it? Or do you actually asking a question?
No one is accurately identifying the problem. I, with help of others did and posting the permanent solution. Nothing more nothing less. Hopefully others will learn and fix their own engines, the first time, with what we found.

The questions in post #2 were things the 4 of us all went over. We even had the VVT cast core cam surface hardness checked at 18 rockwell. So surface hardening of stock cast core VVT cams is not an issue. Still waiting on the results of the surface hardness tests of the 03-08 billet core cams.
 

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Yeah- again- don't want to argue- but don't waste your precious time and money. You're not the first and not the last one, trying to figure it out.
The only thing I could think of is a oil line over the rockers, spraying the oil on them, like others do with their cam shafts. IF the oil is the issue.
I just doubt, you, with your limited resources and financial background (I'm talking about, I doubt, you have millions to spend on it), this is another shot in the dark.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
don't waste your precious time and money.
Waste my money on what exactly? Fixing my truck properly?

You're not the first and not the last one, trying to figure it out.
We did figure it out. Thats the point.

The only thing I could think of is a oil line over the rockers, spraying the oil on them, like others do with their cam shafts.
Not sure wtf your talking about here. Doesnt make any sense.
 

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with the last question you disqualify yourself and showed me, you have no idea, what you're talking about. Read some books and learn something- you might figure out, what I'm talking about.

Have fun.
 

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If anyone wants to argue over anything please take it to another thread.
LOL
Good luck with that one pilgrim!
The wear on the camshaft shows the story, rollers were on a cam surface without oil.
How did you detect the wear was "without oil"? Did you just see the wear and assume it was because of running dry, or did you employ a methodology that's , you know, actually scientific. Which is to say a methodology with blind testing and verifiable empirical data?
Of course you didn't.
But let's move on.
So the solution is dedicated roller lifter axle oiling. 1 company makes them. Johnson lifters out of taylor, MI. https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters.aspx
OK, let's just assume, for grins, it's true that "dedicated roller lifter axle oiling is "the solution".
Question one; Can you direct me to the section on Johnson Lifters site where they discuss in specific terms; a) how their lifters have "dedicated" oil supply to the roller axle?, and b) where, in the hemi engine, that "dedicated" oil supply is coming from, given that according to you the only source of oil to that region in the engine is splash from the crank?
(According to the Johnson site you link to, all I can find in the way of claims to a superior hydraulic lifter is an assertion that their machining tolerances are tighter. Please point me to what I'm missing which aligns with your claim of "dedicated" oil supply)
So the next question we had was why do we not see these failures in 03-08 hemis? -All we (myself and 3 other knowledgeable, notable people in the industry) can come up with is billet camshafts and lack of VVT. The hemi was never designed for VVT originally, it was added later. It was designed with MDS originally.
So since your hypothesis fails to explain lack of lifter/cam failure in earlier model years, all you "and 3 other knowledgeable and notable people can come up with" is to shift dramatically from your previous bold certainty that you have identified the problem and start wildly flailing in the direction VVT?
No attempt to evaluate how, or even if, the addition of VVT would influence the splash oiling of the components in question. No data. No empiricism. No nothing.

Another question. Do you have any connection, financial or otherwise, to Johnson Lifters?

I'm with @guy65, and calling bs.
 

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If you morons cant even comprehend splash oiling or failure analysis i might as well be arguing with dirt.
Ok- then butter by the fish:

Where are your documents? where is the documentation, proving, that engines with higher idle times are more prone? where is your base to your conclusion?
I do stuff like that every day and can tell you- metallurgical analysis are not cheap and if you want to have it right, you also have to be able to understand the test results.

Where is the DATA? And I'm not talking about one or two engines, especially, when I can assume, that the engine on your pictures comes from a Gen. 3.
To be able to draw a conclusion, you need the data from hundreds, when not thousands of engines with the same test results. don't make a fool out of yourself and your 3 buddies with home made wannabe- investigations, just because you think you know something. That's what others went to school for a long time and have relatively high paying jobs.

I have a nice saying from W. Edwards Deming over my desk:

"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion".

Leave the stuff the professionals- you, obviously, are not one, when you don't even know, how the oil supply to bearings works. And yes, I have to do with stuff like that every day.
 

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Ok- then butter by the fish:

Where are your documents? where is the documentation, proving, that engines with higher idle times are more prone? where is your base to your conclusion?
I do stuff like that every day and can tell you- metallurgical analysis are not cheap and if you want to have it right, you also have to be able to understand the test results.

Where is the DATA? And I'm not talking about one or two engines, especially, when I can assume, that the engine on your pictures comes from a Gen. 3.
To be able to draw a conclusion, you need the data from hundreds, when not thousands of engines with the same test results. don't make a fool out of yourself and your 3 buddies with home made wannabe- investigations, just because you think you know something. That's what others went to school for a long time and have relatively high paying jobs.

I have a nice saying from W. Edwards Deming over my desk:

"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion".

Leave the stuff the professionals- you, obviously, are not one, when you don't even know, how the oil supply to bearings works. And yes, I have to do with stuff like that every day.
Just stumbling across this post and reading your replies tells me you are a jerk who should be ignored. Guy tries to tell us what he found out and instead of engaging him you attack him, call him names and generally behave like an immature 12-year-old. Go away you loser.
 

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Just stumbling across this post and reading your replies tells me you are a jerk who should be ignored. Guy tries to tell us what he found out and instead of engaging him you attack him, call him names and generally behave like an immature 12-year-old. Go away you loser.
"If you morons cant even comprehend splash oiling or failure analysis i might as well be arguing with dirt. "

mmmmm......being called a moron, I think Id reply in similar fashion.
 

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The biggest problem I have with his theory is the leaning towards VVT which has absolutely nothing to do with lifters or lifter oiling - nothing, NADA, zilch as in zero.
 

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I think its pretty well determined at this point, there is some lack of lubrication to the rear of the engine. Extended low RPM use means not necessarily enough oil is getting back there which leads to friction breaking down the metals. I think some of it is also lower quality materials.

It has happened to MDS and non-MDS lifters alike so its not an MDS only thing.

When did they add VVT to the mix? Not in 2011 (which is where these issues seem to be most prevalent) so I would say also not a VVT issue just based on that. Not even taking into account the fact that VVT doesnt cause a lack of lubrication.
 

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The guy never did answer my question about how the lifters he's touting as "the solution" actually meet his "dedicated roller lifter axle oiling" criteria. There is nothing whatsoever about that characteristic on the lifter manufacturer's website that he links to, nor does he attempt to identify a source of such dedicated oiling in the Hemi.

He didn't respond when asked if he had any financial interest or connection to Johnson Lifters either.

He got some rational pushback on his assertions and instead of expanding on his assertions with evidence and reason he went straight to calling us morons, and now @Cleavor is chewing someone out for it?
Meh.
?‍♂
 

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We need more of these types of threads and more options to deal with this thing that plagues so many of us. One thing I would like to add, molybdenum is what fca added to their srt oil to help with dry start friction. That is what most oils use for dry starts, but FCA added 4 or 5 times the average mly level to their srt specific oil. I'm not suggesting this is a magic bullet, but what moly does is it exists where their is pressure when the oil is not there, it stays behind. Yes, if there is something mechanical we can do that would be the best choice, but as an addition we should also follow fca's lead and research lubrication. Look at high moly oils and additives as another thing we can toss at hemi tick. Lubegard biotech is only 6 bucks on amazon, and it oil soluble moly with esters. Poor man's redline is what we call it, but also consider redline oil. These oils and additives have ant friction properties that are left behind when the oil isn't there. Many guys have killed hemi tick with these lubrication strategies. Now, does that mean the cam wont fail, this I can't tell you, just that long term uoa's suggest when you kill hemi tick the wear numbers go down in those engines.
 

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Ok- then butter by the fish:

Where are your documents? where is the documentation, proving, that engines with higher idle times are more prone? where is your base to your conclusion?
I do stuff like that every day and can tell you- metallurgical analysis are not cheap and if you want to have it right, you also have to be able to understand the test results.

Where is the DATA? And I'm not talking about one or two engines, especially, when I can assume, that the engine on your pictures comes from a Gen. 3.
To be able to draw a conclusion, you need the data from hundreds, when not thousands of engines with the same test results. don't make a fool out of yourself and your 3 buddies with home made wannabe- investigations, just because you think you know something. That's what others went to school for a long time and have relatively high paying jobs.

I have a nice saying from W. Edwards Deming over my desk:

"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion".

Leave the stuff the professionals- you, obviously, are not one, when you don't even know, how the oil supply to bearings works. And yes, I have to do with stuff like that every day.
Dude WHY do you have to insist on being such a redacted? When you first started with " I dont want to argue, but......" I just knew you were gonna insist you are the only expert on the redacted face of the planet that knows how to do mechanical analysis. I was right and your just another stupid troll. Do us all a favor and STFU
 

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The guy never did answer my question about how the lifters he's touting as "the solution" actually meet his "dedicated roller lifter axle oiling" criteria. There is nothing whatsoever about that characteristic on the lifter manufacturer's website that he links to, nor does he attempt to identify a source of such dedicated oiling in the Hemi.

He didn't respond when asked if he had any financial interest or connection to Johnson Lifters either.

He got some rational pushback on his assertions and instead of expanding on his assertions with evidence and reason he went straight to calling us morons, and now @Cleavor is chewing someone out for it?
Meh.
?‍♂
When you post your finds and recommendations then get the response's from "The Crew Here" I wouldn't bother to answer you either. Clearly if the guy bought an inexpensive truck then had to fix it twice, he isn't vested with Johnson Lifters or you are just too blind to clearly see the trees in the forest.
 
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