[CdnoilRAM]

I have one thing to say about this thread and this mod (in this post) and that is:

 

[CdnoilRAM]

And here are the quotes from my other forum regarding this exact same mod that is being stupidly circulated and then endorsed by the 'butt dyno'.

You do realize the throttle body ground is internal and isolated from the throttle body itself right? you can run a 2" ground bus off the throttle body and it will have no effect

There isn't one electronic item within that tb that directly references ground. 31 is 1000% right. You want a improvement, then upgrade the ground from the bellhousing to the chassis grnd. Everything else is bs.

What are you guys thinking?? You've both been here long enough to realize science is no match for the ass dyno...

You guys aren't for real are you???

I've read some doozies in my time...but this b0llsh!t really takes the cake. We just get everyone understanding just how ineffective / useless hypergrounding is and now this?

As some really smart folks have already(!) stated, signal reference ground (GND) is internal and NOT subject to extraneous EMI / RFI of any sort. Add to this there is a +reference voltage. Good heavens folks, this is not only pointless but stupid...


EDIT; a mindlessly simple means of debunking this farce would be with an oscilliscope on either GND or one of the + references...

EDIT #2; try and imagine (my goodness) if our throttle control-by-wire systems on our rides were actually subject to any sort of extraneous noise or anomalies during command and/or reference sampling...it would make the previous "unintended acceleration" fiasco look like a walk in the park.

EDIT #3; then there's the reference-V itself that confirms physical blade position back to the PCM...if "anything" is outta line it's reported immediately and swift action is taken (limp mode with no throttle recovery and DTC's).

than just a hypothesis...same with installing a ported throttle body and being "instructed" to remove B- or pull fuse 11. Simply resetting the adaptives in most cases results in significant drivability changes...without changing a single component

Adding extra grounds carries some significant risks BTW; as opposed to me blathering on about it, google "ground loop" and take note how easy it is to screw / compromise another electrical system or circuitry integrity by inducing voltage / current in other devices.

There's no question that having sufficient ground is important for any modern engine. However, taking a particular instance, and expanding it as a generality does not make logical sense. Something else has to be going on to influence the electronics and servo motor in the TB. I typically use grounding to complete an electrical circuit or to provide shielding from EMI (electro-magnetic interfence). For example, I have a grounding wire attached to the housing of the MSD box in my '92 Explorer, among other things that MSD recommends as electrical protection. The operative word is here is recommends, meaning that MSD has including the grounding wire as part of its troubleshooting guide, because it may be required.

From my perspective, a grounding wire off the TB implies that something is amiss with the TB electronics that is causing the reported issue, like EMI, which can hasten the degeneration of electrical components (depending on severity). If this is the case, then TB grounding is a solution for the particular instance, and not something that is generally or universally recommended. To Eric's and Simon's point, the TB is directly controlled by the PCM/ECU as a closed system. The housing of the TB could be plastic and the electronics would still work. That said, all electronic components are prone to degeneration over time due to heat, but the TB electronics have been "engineered" for it's particular environmental conditions. That's not to say, however, that sh!t never happen.

What is important to realize is that any sort of anomaly within the confines of the TB electronics or servo control system are constantly monitored for position fidelity and accuracy. Any anomaly that would alter blade position to produce an unwanted change from commanded position is not possible without it being sensed and acted upon by the PCM. After all, this is what is being implied here...that somehow throttle blade angle is being modified by adding a GND lead (wire = one conductive strand, lead = bundle of strands, cable = 2 or more leads).

these topics have been discused ad-nasuem many times over. the reason why the seasoned people chime in here is because of how much snake oil is being sold and taking advantage of the members who just dont know what they are looking for. the search function can find all these topics.

i think the knowledge base needs to be expanded on these snake oil tricks, for the purpose of consumer protection.

but to answer the question at hand in laymans terms. one good ground = least resistance. electricity follows the path of least resistance, just like a stream of water. adding a bunch of little creeks in the middle of the stream creates a pool of water, or in electrical terms, resistance... heat

must equally realize though that these sorts of things can lead to other problems, or mask the actual problem...and just plain not be functional. With respect to the OP's opinion that he believes has been corrected by adding a length of lead; I'm confident that upon further investigation either root-cause would be determined and / or the added lead is ineffective.

Let's be clear...the suggestion or implication is that adding a length of lead from vehicle GND to the TB's aluminum shell has altered throttle body functionality. This has been disproven and a means of corroborating outlined (measure signal integrity looking for extraneous noise on-signal or references with an oscilloscope). Add to this that it has been shown that if "any" anomaly exists, for any measureable length of time (milliseconds) will be immediately flagged by the PCM.

This is not about whether a red car is better than a white car. That is purely subjective. It is whether the act of adding a length of lead can do what is being claimed. The results being suggested are subjective.

It can not...and what has been put forth to support this...is empirical.

 

[CdnoilRAM]

Dont hate you hater!!! There are a lot more threads out there than this at least this is creative...

Creative or not, doesn't mean this does ANYTHING. Our TBs are internally grounded through the wiring harness and if there was any static charge being built up on the TB, it is dissipated through the internal ground. I see so many people recommend ressetting the adaptives and you'll see the difference with this mod... OF COURSE YOU WILL YOU RESET THE ADAPTIVES! there by altering the internal memory of throttle blade neutral. That's like saying "if you want to go fast, roll down the window" because it FEELS faster.

 

[CdnoilRAM]

The problem with the idea of a 'free mod' just because it can be done (and yes, this does work on limited vehicles, popular on some import intakes with poor grounding I've been told; this is due to having internal processing) has a bad tendancy to create the placebo effect. Too many people go on the 'butt dyno' which means if they did a mod, they want to FEEL a result, which in all too common a case is exactely what they WANT to feel. Then it perpetuates itself, since one person did it, followed by others, then suddenly it becomes the 'IT' mod to do... like throttle body spacers.

If they are seeing a 'difference' then there is potential for there being a real underlying cause, which this mod would then be treating a symptom, not the disease. I wrapped and grounded my RCA leads on my pioneer HU because i have alternator whine, and it went away. I know it went away, but I did not solve the underlying cause of having a blown internal fuse, I just covered up the symptom.

Our TB mechanisms are not subject to RFI or EMI, so the concept of grounding out the housing to improve throttle signal clarity can not be taken seriously. If our TBs had internal chip boards I could see this possibility, but when you have a wire connected to a servo motor, which drives a dead arm, there is zero possibility of EM interference.

 

[CdnoilRAM]

My worry is that people can potentially create a ground loop in the throttle system if they 'ground' to the wrong thing, such as one of the alternator bolts, and if you thought the 'toyota/energizer bunny merger' caused issues, then I'd be worried about what this could do to our throttle signal.

We get so many posts of things we KNOW are bad for our vehicles: chips, electric intake fans (had one today), TB spacers; and everybody jumps in and waves them away becuase they don't do anything. Why should this be any different? People will do it regardless, just like TB spacers, but if there are both sides to the story, then they have the right to make an informed decision, which is why I make my posts. If there are enough well respected people on this forum (this includes you RamTex, you are respected here) who say "hmmm, this is interesting" but don't do the mod, then new people see that and take it on faith that it's worth doing.

I'm glad that RT and I can have a disagreement about this, it's healthy, and there's been no resorting to personal attacks, even if he does smell like 5 day old lobster left in the sun.

 

[CdnoilRAM]

Nah, we be good. Besides, I fight like a little girl, though all the hand swatting and potential mud wrestling might be enough to get us on Jerry Springer...

 

[CdnoilRAM]

I'm jealous, I could use a drink. Stupid dry camp in the middle of the northern albertan muskeg.

And yes, I have been. I'm only slightly jealous. Getting a new top end will have to do me for now.

 

[CdnoilRAM]

It's now official...

 

[CdnoilRAM]

and to answer your question, it's all about having medium income with low expenditure. I also spend almost all my disposable income on my truck, much to my fiancee's chagrin. Hell, when I was 24 I was still tooling around in my dakota, but it was a fun little ride. I wish I'd had a full size at that age, would've made moving across the country twice, much easier.

 

[CdnoilRAM]

I was having major issues with my throttle response('04 Hemi)...not really major, just majorly annoying. At low speeds it'd be easy to have the rpms "jump" up and down like it didn't know what it wanted to do. This would mainly be at low speeds, like driving through a parking lot or something, where you'd barely have your foot on the gas. But, it could also be noticed at higher speeds, it's just masked a little for whatever reason.

I also noticed that when I'd let off the gas, my RPM's would drop way low(600-800), and then bounce back up to where it should be if you were coasting in that gear. The response of the throttle was also off. It was missing that initial response when you first hit the gas, so you had to be very cautious at launch so that you don't make it jump at first.

All in all, I had been dealing with this stuff for about 4 years...just never bothered to get it check out because I had kinda lived to deal with it. But, I did a simple google search and came across people recommending to ground the TB, so I figured I'd give it a try(I'm an audio guy, I have a ton of wire and goodies sitting around). I spent all of 10-15min doing the extra ground, and....


EVERY PROBLEM I HAD IS GONE. NO JOKE.


This works, plain and simple. If you have an '04 Hemi like me and are experiencing the same issues, DO THIS SIMPLE MOD. It is literally a night and day difference. I don't have to think about how I'm pressing on the gas to avoid my old issues, I don't have to worry about looking stupid with my truck's erratic coasting at low speeds. It has all been fixed thanks to a simple 2-3ft long 12ga wire.

Cool story, bro. Now try resetting your adaptives and really unleash the power.