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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all, '09 RAM 4.7 with about 60,000 miles. Started with bank 1 O2 sensor 1 & 2 codes. Replaced sensors. Now I can't shake P0141 & P0147 lean fuel codes. I checked both O2 connectors, pulled and inspected intake manifold, cleaned air intake temp sensor and tested it for resistance with heat applied, checked for vacuum leaks multiple times with carb cleaner, look listen feel, nothing.

Not saying it isn't something I've already checked but anyone else had this and solved? Common vacuum line chafe points? EGR or PCV issues?

Thanks for the help!

Ben
 

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Have you driven the truck much since you changed the O2 sensors
Sometimes it takes a week or 2 of driving under normal driving conditions

You could do what is called a Drive Cycle Monitor Test

First you have to clear the codes, usually that can be done by disconnecting your Negative Battery Post for a period of time, ( 15 to 30 minutes )
With the engine cold, say the first start of the day, or when the vehicles has been shut off for several hours

Follow these directions for O2 sensor checks ...

O2 Sensor Monitor Drive Trace
&
O2 Sensor Heater Monitor Drive Trace

http://justsmogs.com/2014/01/chrysler-dodge-drive-cycle-procedures-to-complete-obd-readiness-monitors/

Hopefully that will take care of your issue



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A code P0141 may mean that one or more of the following has happened:
open or short to ground in the wiring harness
O2 heater circuit wiring high resistance
O2 heater element resistance is high
Internal short or open in the heater element
Note:
Typically a failed catalytic converter does not cause this code. You're more likely to see a P0420 code for a failed converter.

Read more at: https://www.obd-codes.com/p0141
Copyright OBD-Codes.com

https://www.obd-codes.com/p0147
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I drove it maybe 20 miles since O2 sensor change. Engine lopes at idle as if cam'd and only likes WOT.

I reset via obdII and negative battery terminal but haven't diven much since sure to 5 mpg, RPM all over the place.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Tried resetting codes by battery disconnect then drive for a while. Burned through two tanks of gas. The best it performed was after the third battery reset. No issues for about 50 miles then it started up again and CEL present. Got P0141/0147 and P0131/0137 O2 B1S1/B1S2.

Anyone know what O2 sensor recepticals should read with a meter?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I was even getting improved economy at about 15mpg. Not quite back to the 17/18 I used to get but better than the 5mpg I get when the CEL comes on.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
thank you for the recommendation. I actually did run a can of seafoam in the last half tank.

Since i started with this mess i ran one full tank of 93 octane, half a tank of 87 with seafoam. Then another full tank of 87. Just filled up again today.

My mpg varies from 5 to 15. Sometimes the engine seems to run just fine and I'll creep back into the 17/18 (normal range for my driving) and the engine is smooth. Then almost out of nowhere it'll start loping again with the rough running motor like a detonation issue.

I hate to have to take this thing in and dump a bunch of money into it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I sprayed some throttle body foam cleaner in the TB, changed the plugs and wires and reset PCM by negative battery terminal disconnect.

Drive about 15 miles and running well. No victory celebration yet.

Anyone have electronic throttle body position sensor issues?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I cleared the codes again (PCM reset) and P0153 has not reappeared.

P0171/P0174 are now the only codes that persist. I'm only able to drive about 150 miles before tank is empty. This has been the case for the past 3 fill ups.

Idle drops to 400-450 rpm at one traffic light, surging for a few minutes while accelerating then will smooth out and by the next traffic light I'm back up to 600 rpm. Could be TPS? Sounds like Throttle Position Sensor is part of the Throttle Body. I tested the connector for resistance at idle, mid and WOT. Was fluctuating as expected with advancement of the accelerator.

Today I noticed my vents only work on floor/defrost. This SCREAMS vacuum leak.

I sprayed a whole can of carb cleaner around every vacuum hose from one end to the other, inlet to fuel tank. Performed the same check with propane. RPM never reacted suggesting I have yet to locate the source.

Black deposits spit out my exhaust at startup and black smoke under heavy acceleration. Lean codes on every CEL set.

No visible exhaust leaks. I've been under there at night with a flashlight, felt around with my hands and could not locate any leaks.

I swapped out my EVAP purge valve and drove around for 30 minutes. Slightly improved mpg but still around 11 mpg when typically 17/18 in that type of driving condition.

Anyone have a vacuum diagram for 4th gens?

Side note and may not be related. While looking on top of my fuel tank (during a rainstorm) I noticed water dripping down directly on top of the tank where the access point is. Water intrusion a possibility?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Here's another added piece to the puzzle. I never "top off" my fuel tank at the pump however, the past couple visits to the pump i had to keep squeezing the nozzle because it kept kicking off as if full already.

If i have a fuel vent filling up and fuel filling up the canister it could impact the purge valve which in my previous post mentioned slight improvement when swapped out with a different one.

Fuel tank is removed at the moment while I look into the fuel vent tube and canister stuff. Will update. Hoping this helps someone out one day.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I applied air to the small side port on the charcoal canister, plugged the vent tube and air flowed nicely though the larger port. This is the test procedure I found on youtube.

Fuel pump looks clean. Only issue i found was an orange gasket at the electrical plug to the pump (internal of the tank) was popping out. I adjusted it so it's tucked in properly.

I attempted to apply light pressure through the purge valve and it did not pass through. higher pressure does. Valve should be closed without current applied.

SO far I believe all the EVAP system from the purge valve back to the tank and the tank/pump/fill port are all functioning properly. While applying shop air I didn't notice any leaks.

Still stumped.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Put everything back together. Check fuel pressure at the rail. 55-60 psi. Vacuum check with engine running at 2,000 rpm. 17 inches T'd off the purge valve, 17-22 inches at the line that connects to PCV valve (PCV valve removed, plugged hole in valve cover and also tested with no plug). Slight increase in vacuum when plug removed from PCV valve hole location.

Also checked vacuum at driver side valve cover vent that runs up to the air box. This location was only 7 inches.
 

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Have you cleaned the Air temp sensor and the map sensor with sensor cleaner? What brand of O2 sensors did you use? With Mopar engines the most commonly used is NTK. Do not use Bosch as they don't always seem to work with our vehicles and if they have a wrong reading will greatly affect fuel mileage as will the Map sensor. Installing a new Map would be cheap. The other possibility for a malfunctioning engine could be a worn throttle body. At this point you may need to go to a qualified mechanic that has the equipment to run all the system checks on the way the engine is running. Ask friends and family for one that they would trust.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I clear inlet temp sensor and used NTK O2 sensors.

Changed coolant temp sensor per direction of family friend mechanic. Truck runs perfect. Have driven about 50 miles without any issues. Averaging 21 mpgs where I used to get 17 and then 5 mpg after this mess started.


No codes, no CEL.

As for defrost and floor vents. They are electrically operated. One of the actuators gears were slipping. Changed it out today and back to normal person as well.

Thanks to those who made some good suggestions on here. Hope this helps someone in the future!
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
In effort to keep this updated to help others out (nothing worse than reading a thread and thinking, that's exactly what I'm experiencing and the thread drops dead before conclusion) here's some more info.

So far I have replaced:
16 spark plugs (Autolite)
8 spark plug wires
IAT sensor
EGR valve
Engine Coolant Temp sensor
B1S1 & B2S2 O2 sensors
Gutted Bank 1 (driver side) cat (probably not necessary)

I have good fuel pressure at the rail, no noticeable vacuum leak unless someone can tell me what i should be reading on the passenger side valve cover where the hose enters the cover from the air box.

After EGR valve replacement the truck ran flawlessly. 18-21 mpg No CEL. Drove it for 150 miles over a the past week and CEL came on a couple times as low O2 voltage and the inefficient bank 1 catalytic converter due to removing the catalyst so that was expected.

Driving home yesterday the engine shuddering, black smoke, decreased fuel economy, rough idle started again. CEL on. Codes are lean codes and low voltage all O2 sensor codes.

How/Why so intermittent?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Just as an update I still have not fully solved this case. Truck was running for for a few months with exception of inefficient cat but that's because it is eliminated. When to put gas in the other day, pump kicked off like it was full, squeezed again and proceeded to fill it up. Started the truck and left. Drove over to a parking spot and sat at idle and truck began same symptoms as described previously. MPG are back up around 17.5 to 20's highway. Still unsure but when I figure it out I'll update
 
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