DODGE RAM FORUM banner
1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 2015 Ram 1500 Hemi 4x4 with 3.92 gears. About a month ago I put a full procharger D1SC kit on with a tune from procharger and, with the exception of the active grille shutter code not going away, it's been running just fine.

Now I just got back from a 2600 mile round trip and after I got back it started giving me problems. After struggling to move from stops, and stalling out upon parking, it gave me two codes, P0175 and P0172, saying that the system is running too rich. I tried putting on a 93 octane tune that I previously had from hemifever and it wasn't idling as rough but it put in what I suspect is limp mode (traction control disabled, electronic throttle body light flashing, won't go past 3rd gear.)

I have a few ideas of what could have cause it, but I'm no true mechanic. It seems like the hose that connects the supercharger to the bottom inlet of the intercooler is somewhat pinched. I suspect that maybe the boost isn't getting through properly and the added resistance could be causing extra pressure, causing the bypass valve to blow off prematurely. In my mind, this could be causing the system to run rich by having the extra fuel but not having the extra air. The only problem I see with that is it was doing it for awhile but it is only just now causing problems.

The only reliable performance shop (they specialize in procharger systems) around here said it would be about $650 for a retune. But I'm hoping someone has some ideas of what could possibly be wrong and if it's something I can fix myself before I spend that much money. Any and all help is appreciated.
 

·
Registered
2014 345ci 8hp70 44-44 3.92 Truetrac NX Express Comp Greene Racing
Joined
·
1,926 Posts
I take it you don't have a vacuum/boost gauge? That is the first thing that should've been installed, second is an external wideband O2 sensor to monitor open and closed loop fuel trims.

OBD-II scanner would be 3 minimum on a boosted application to assist in troubleshooting.

Did you personally install the kit? How is it all plumbed, just a canned tune?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
You assume correctly. I did install it personally, with help. Took me and my brother in law about 3 days. It's all hooked up the way the instructions told me to. I'm gonna go over everything again, make sure I didn't miss anything else. The tune I installed came from procharger (you send them a stock tune, they modify it, send the modified one back, you install the modified tune) through the provided i2 tuner
 

·
Registered
2014 345ci 8hp70 44-44 3.92 Truetrac NX Express Comp Greene Racing
Joined
·
1,926 Posts
Were you making boost and seat of the pants power initially before without any issues? What is the waste gate on the charge pipe set for? Certainly possible that the plumbing deviated.
I'm going to do some kit research as now I'm intrigued.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I wouldn't call it seat of the pants power but it was definitely more. As for boost, I think it did at first but when the bypass valve kicked on when I was accelerating, there was definitely a noticeable drop in power. And I'm not sure what the bypass valve is set for, and to be perfectly honest I have no idea how to check
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
335 Posts
I'm sorry but you will have to get it retuned.

The ETC limp mode can be triggered by several things, one of them being when the PCM believes the air density readings aren't making sense (in a naturally aspirated setting). If the readings aren't "implausable" it will go into limp mode without setting off a MAP or IAT code.

Of course check the standard stuff - leaks in the plumbing, worn pullies, belt tension, plugs, etc, but your problem is tuning related, and might be made worse by mechanical problems created from sustained highway driving with a poor tune.

The 5.7 uses an intake air temperature and mainfold air pressure sensor to calculate approximate air density to adjust timing and fuelling strategies. Chrysler has some kind of vendetta with mass air flow sensors, even though they are much better suitable for forced induction setups. In fact the hellcats use a mass air flow sensor - well used to, then they switched it to a specially designed IAT sensor later on.

But the point is this engine was neither electrically nor mechanically designed for forced induction - to make it run right you will need a tune. Not just a *drop in* tune, it will have to be customized by someone who knows what they're doing, who is aware of the modifications you've done, and can walk you through what additional sensors/mods/etc they would need to keep the engine from blowing up: things like injectors, plugs, plug gap, wide band O2 sensors, special IAT/MAP sensors, or even retrofitting a MAF sensor.

And thats just the electrical portion. Any engine designed without forced induction in mind won't last too long with any kind of boost applied to it, especially without an appropriate tune. One of the first things your tuner should check is the engine's mechanical health, and he'll let you know if somethings up. When you get a custom tune at a good shop they'll sit down and talk over what needs to be done.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
34,751 Posts
I would definitely get my vehicle specifically tuned if I installed a blower or turbos rather than using a canned tune. Running lean or having any sort of detonation will blow your pistons or rings in short order


I would not worry about the engine not being "built" for FI unless you're putting more than 7 psi or so into it. There are a lot of guys out there running 500-550 hp at the wheels reliably
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
34,751 Posts
Yeah I have plans for a project car (just not sure what yet) because I want to be able to use my truck to tow it around in case I go a little hard on the mods lol


Everyone with a project car needs a shop truck:thk:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
335 Posts
I would not worry about the engine not being "built" for FI unless you're putting more than 7 psi or so into it. There are a lot of guys out there running 500-550 hp at the wheels reliably
Thunderhorse, Im sorry but I have to disagree.

First of all, I have yet to see a 5.7 make it over 180k miles stock. I don’t know if its chrysler’s quality control, owners doing stupid crap to it, or a combination of both, but I see enough issues both in the shop and on this forum to call this engine “reliable”.

A requirement with any project is a strong foundation. If this engine can’t make it over 180k with more-or-less on time maintenance and reasonable operating conditions, how can you expect it to be reliable with a tune? Much less forced induction?

No, the engine wont catastrophically fail with a mild tune or small amounts of boost. But without confirming at the very minimum what specifications the engine was built to, you are merely knocking on wood that chrysler’s mexico plant built their engine correctly (we all know chrylser isnt exactly the greatest with quality control).

Once you start turning the power up, any small deviation from spec results in exponentially more devistating consequences, especially when forced induction is involved. When an engine is blueprinted and properly built (machined, assmbled, etc), you know exactly what the tolerances are. The tuner knows exactly what its mechanical limitations are, and how it will behave when stupid things like coil packs or injectors start failing. With a factory engine, its tolerances are “somewhere in the ballpark” of 2 values, forcing them to make assumptions that are not acceptable with anything greater than stock power.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
34,751 Posts
Thunderhorse, Im sorry but I have to disagree.

First of all, I have yet to see a 5.7 make it over 180k miles stock. I don’t know if its chrysler’s quality control, owners doing stupid crap to it, or a combination of both, but I see enough issues both in the shop and on this forum to call this engine “reliable”.

A requirement with any project is a strong foundation. If this engine can’t make it over 180k with more-or-less on time maintenance and reasonable operating conditions, how can you expect it to be reliable with a tune? Much less forced induction?

No, the engine wont catastrophically fail with a mild tune or small amounts of boost. But without confirming at the very minimum what specifications the engine was built to, you are merely knocking on wood that chrysler’s mexico plant built their engine correctly (we all know chrylser isnt exactly the greatest with quality control).

Once you start turning the power up, any small deviation from spec results in exponentially more devistating consequences, especially when forced induction is involved. When an engine is blueprinted and properly built (machined, assmbled, etc), you know exactly what the tolerances are. The tuner knows exactly what its mechanical limitations are, and how it will behave when stupid things like coil packs or injectors start failing. With a factory engine, its tolerances are “somewhere in the ballpark” of 2 values, forcing them to make assumptions that are not acceptable with anything greater than stock power.
We have several members over 200,000 and even 300,000 on their Hemis. This guy got over 500,000 and was still going without a rebuild

https://www.allpar.com/cotm/13/caldwell-ram.html

IDK whose Hemis you are seeing but these engines are far more durable than that
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
335 Posts
You cant sit here and tell me with a straight face that these engines regularly see 200k miles, then give me a special case as evidence. Honda fanboys use the same biased arguments and it really aggravates me.

I see fords, GMs, and toyotas at the junkyard with well over that. Hell, last weekend I pulled a 14 bolt out of a 98 K3500 with 301k miles. Meanwhile, my local junkyard has a waiting list for the "hemi"s because they're in such high demand - they get plenty of dodges but very few have salvageable engines. The ones that do have either the 5.9 cummins or the LAs/magnums (one of my favorite engines btw).

Dont take my word for it, go on ebay - look for GM's 6.0 (LQ4, LQ8, L96) or ford's 6.2 - you'll find LOTS in running condition with high (150k+) miles pulled out of work trucks involved in collisions. Now look up the 5.7 or 6.4 - you'll find very few, and the ones you do find have very low miles from some idiot getting in an accident the minute he bought the truck.

If these engines really did last, why would they be in such high demand? Their owners would instead be keeping them for 15+ years, rather than searching the internet for replacements. You see the jeep in my signature? It has 265k miles. Before I bought my ram I had a 2001 chevy with 220k miles. My friend's tow vehicle is a 2003 f250 with about 210k miles. His dad had a 94 Dodge with the 360 with 260k miles. None of them were treated nicely. And despite being several decades older, none of those engines are in as high demand as the "hemi"s because they last.

But we're getting off topic. Lets assume that these engines are amazing. They can't defy physics no matter how well built they are. You can't slap a supercharger to it and expect it to be almost as reliable as it was stock. I actually just had this discussion with a sortof-friend that works a ptuning: he had a customer that didn't understand why he needed a built engine for a mild tune on his 4b11t.

Even if it was tuned, what happens when an injector decides to be dumb, a spark plug wears out, or the gas station you happened to stop happened had crap gas? These factors can be accounted for if the tuner played a part of the engine's assembly, and wont result in disaster if they occur.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
34,751 Posts
You cant sit here and tell me with a straight face that these engines regularly see 200k miles, then give me a special case as evidence. Honda fanboys use the same biased arguments and it really aggravates me.

I see fords, GMs, and toyotas at the junkyard with well over that. Hell, last weekend I pulled a 14 bolt out of a 98 K3500 with 301k miles. Meanwhile, my local junkyard has a waiting list for the "hemi"s because they're in such high demand - they get plenty of dodges but very few have salvageable engines. The ones that do have either the 5.9 cummins or the LAs/magnums (one of my favorite engines btw).

Dont take my word for it, go on ebay - look for GM's 6.0 (LQ4, LQ8, L96) or ford's 6.2 - you'll find LOTS in running condition with high (150k+) miles pulled out of work trucks involved in collisions. Now look up the 5.7 or 6.4 - you'll find very few, and the ones you do find have very low miles from some idiot getting in an accident the minute he bought the truck.

If these engines really did last, why would they be in such high demand? Their owners would instead be keeping them for 15+ years, rather than searching the internet for replacements. You see the jeep in my signature? It has 265k miles. Before I bought my ram I had a 2001 chevy with 220k miles. My friend's tow vehicle is a 2003 f250 with about 210k miles. His dad had a 94 Dodge with the 360 with 260k miles. None of them were treated nicely. And despite being several decades older, none of those engines are in as high demand as the "hemi"s because they last.

But we're getting off topic. Lets assume that these engines are amazing. They can't defy physics no matter how well built they are. You can't slap a supercharger to it and expect it to be almost as reliable as it was stock. I actually just had this discussion with a sortof-friend that works a ptuning: he had a customer that didn't understand why he needed a built engine for a mild tune on his 4b11t.

Even if it was tuned, what happens when an injector decides to be dumb, a spark plug wears out, or the gas station you happened to stop happened had crap gas? These factors can be accounted for if the tuner played a part of the engine's assembly, and wont result in disaster if they occur.

I can because they do; look this is an internet board, I'm not going to post you a peer reviewed study. If it helps, here's some more:


http://www.ramforumz.com/showthread.php?t=193898


Few in here: http://www.ramforumz.com/showthread.php?t=54889&page=3


Again, its the internet so I can tell you of the ones I personally know and it wouldn't mean anything to you.


I imagine the reason junkyards aren't full of 6.4s is that the oldest truck that has one is 4 years old. IDK about your local junkyard, but Ebay seems to have plenty of 5.7s with 130,000+; most people looking for a new engine would probably rather buy a reman than a 220,000 mile used engine. There a host of reasons you may not see them; maybe one reason is because Ram didn't have a fleet program until 2008.


Then again I sold a Honda with 218,000 miles on the original powertrain when I bought this truck.


The only real problem they seem to have is a qc issue with cams and lifters and that's hardly affecting all of them. It also doesn't require the engine to be replaced to fix.



If you think they're so bad I don't understand why you would buy one. For me, the Hemi was one of the biggest draws to Ram; nobody else puts an HD truck engine in a half ton. If it was so bad they wouldn't be making them for going on 16 years-like how Ford only made the 6 and 6.4 PowerStrokes for 4 and 2 years respectively.



We are talking about supercharging engines that come naturally aspirated from the factory, I don't think anyone is under the illusion that that won't decrease longevity at least somewhat. Bad gas and plugs going bad can happen to blueprinted engines too, and most supercharger kits come with fuel system components to include injectors, rails, and pumps
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
335 Posts
You seem to be reading only the first 3 sentences of my paragraphs so I'll try to restructure my answers.


First on topic:
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that that won't decrease longevity at least somewhat.
I just responded to two threads where the OP never even opened the hood, and Im sure you've responded to countless others of similar incompetence. Thats where we come in - because most people believe bolt ons are literal bolt ons that dont need any more attention than what the marketing label tells them. Forums like this exist to dispel those questions.

now for the fun stuff :p
If you think they're so bad I don't understand why you would buy one. For me, the Hemi was one of the biggest draws to Ram
Brand loyalty is something that needs to die in a tire fire. Its resulting in forums like this where misinformation gets wildly distributed and emotionally defended. Most people just want a car or truck that accomplishes a given task for the money they have, and dont give a damn what the pretty plastic badge says. I'm one of those people


Because in reality each manufacturer knows how to build an engine, and each manufacturer has things they are good at and things they suck at. Believe it or not I'm not trash talking the 5.7 - its a very respectable and capable modern engine. Despite this, chrysler has a poor reputation in the eyes of the ignorant general public, so they depreciate like boat anchors. I took advantage of that and bought my 2013 ram with 42k miles for $15k. You cant buy a gm or a ford for that price.


I imagine the reason junkyards aren't full of 6.4s is that the oldest truck that has one is 4 years old.
I said "hemi" - referring primarily to the 5.7, but also the 6.1 and 6.4. But yes, I have yet to see those at the junkyard.

There a host of reasons you may not see them; maybe one reason is because Ram didn't have a fleet program until 2008.
I've seen plenty of dodges that should have the 5.7 but the engines were either out to be sold or reserved (newest was 2012, oldest was 2004)- because again, demand. Not just trucks: aspens, durangos, chargers, etc.

nobody else puts an HD truck engine in a half ton.
I will PM you my rant so we wont derail this thread any more, but the 5.7 and 6.4 are not HD engines. They are high compression brats. I have an entire thread attempting to invoke discussion as to why chrysler chose to do that. That doesnt have to be a bad thing though.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
34,751 Posts
First on topic:
I just responded to two threads where the OP never even opened the hood, and Im sure you've responded to countless others of similar incompetence. Thats where we come in - because most people believe bolt ons are literal bolt ons that dont need any more attention than what the marketing label tells them. Forums like this exist to dispel those questions.

Which is why we told him not to use a canned tune and to get it tuned at a reputable shop.


Brand loyalty is something that needs to die in a tire fire. Its resulting in forums like this where misinformation gets wildly distributed and emotionally defended. Most people just want a car or truck that accomplishes a given task for the money they have, and dont give a damn what the pretty plastic badge says. I'm one of those people

This has nothing to do with brand loyalty; I, and many others, believe that the Hemi is a better engine than the Coyote, Ecot3c, IForce, or Endurance.


I said "hemi" - referring primarily to the 5.7, but also the 6.1 and 6.4. But yes, I have yet to see those at the junkyard.

I've seen plenty of dodges that should have the 5.7 but the engines were either out to be sold or reserved (newest was 2012, oldest was 2004)- because again, demand. Not just trucks: aspens, durangos, chargers, etc.

The Hemi (I presume we are only talking about the 3rd gens) is a family of engines that includes the 5.7, 5.7 Eagle, 6.1 SRT, 6.4 Apache, 6.4 Truck Hemi (which is not the same as the 6.4 Apache in the SRTs), 6.2L Hellcat, and 6.2L Demon (again, not just the same engine with a bigger supercharger).


The 5.7 was specifically designed to replace the 360 and 488 V10 in the HD pickups, which is why it was first available in 2003 when the 3rd gen HDs came out and not 2002 when the 3rd gen 1500s came out. It is a truck engine and was the only gas engine you could get in a 2500 or 3500 from 2004-2013. They put it in duallies and chassis cabs-in fact we have a 3500 stakebed at work with the 5.7.


The 5.7 Eagle in the HD trucks differs only from the engines in the 1500s and cars in the cam, lifters, intake, and tune. If your 1500 needs a new engine you can get one from a 3500 and vice versa. The Eagle and 2003-2008 version are not the same engine; they have different heads, blocks, intakes, cams, everything.



The 6.4 Truck Hemi has 10.0:1 compression and quite literally is only a truck engine. The only vehicles it has ever been put in are 2500, 3500, 4500, and 5500 trucks. As I said before, it is not the same as the Apache 6.4 which has 10.9:1 compression.


I understand that compression is usually lower in HD truck engines (the 6.0 in the Chevies is 9.7:1), however compression ratios can vary even among engines of the same family and displacement. Moreover, compression ratios are not the sole determining factor in whether an engine is a "truck engine" or not.



Among half tons, 10.5 is not even particularly high; the 5.3L Ecot3c has an 11.0:1 ratio, the Coyote is 10.5, the 6.2L L86 is 11.5, the IForce is 10.2, and the Nissan Endurance is 11.2.


Again, there are a host of reasons you may not find them in local junkyards, aside from the one you surmise


FWIW I don't consider a discussion about engine durability and longevity to be off topic in a supercharger thread, esp. when the thread is about supercharging one of those engines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,834 Posts
You cant sit here and tell me with a straight face that these engines regularly see 200k miles, then give me a special case as evidence. Honda fanboys use the same biased arguments and it really aggravates me.

I see fords, GMs, and toyotas at the junkyard with well over that. Hell, last weekend I pulled a 14 bolt out of a 98 K3500 with 301k miles. Meanwhile, my local junkyard has a waiting list for the "hemi"s because they're in such high demand - they get plenty of dodges but very few have salvageable engines. The ones that do have either the 5.9 cummins or the LAs/magnums (one of my favorite engines btw).

Dont take my word for it, go on ebay - look for GM's 6.0 (LQ4, LQ8, L96) or ford's 6.2 - you'll find LOTS in running condition with high (150k+) miles pulled out of work trucks involved in collisions. Now look up the 5.7 or 6.4 - you'll find very few, and the ones you do find have very low miles from some idiot getting in an accident the minute he bought the truck.

If these engines really did last, why would they be in such high demand? Their owners would instead be keeping them for 15+ years, rather than searching the internet for replacements. You see the jeep in my signature? It has 265k miles. Before I bought my ram I had a 2001 chevy with 220k miles. My friend's tow vehicle is a 2003 f250 with about 210k miles. His dad had a 94 Dodge with the 360 with 260k miles. None of them were treated nicely. And despite being several decades older, none of those engines are in as high demand as the "hemi"s because they last.

But we're getting off topic. Lets assume that these engines are amazing. They can't defy physics no matter how well built they are. You can't slap a supercharger to it and expect it to be almost as reliable as it was stock. I actually just had this discussion with a sortof-friend that works a ptuning: he had a customer that didn't understand why he needed a built engine for a mild tune on his 4b11t.

Even if it was tuned, what happens when an injector decides to be dumb, a spark plug wears out, or the gas station you happened to stop happened had crap gas? These factors can be accounted for if the tuner played a part of the engine's assembly, and wont result in disaster if they occur.
I am unfortunately going to agree with this from everything I have noticed. Yes you can bolt on a super but don't expect more than 150000 miles and better do it when new and have it properly tuned at minimum and don't thrash it or the rings are going to have issues. The hemi is very RPM dependent for a truck engine in my opinion and falls more inline with a car type engine that was used solely for streamlining reasons, I also have seen quite a few with issues in contrast to an army of 5.3/6.0 GM engines all in excess of 300k and working totally fine. Ford stuff though.......well it's always leaking at the manifolds and having other annoyances and no power but that's typical.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
34,751 Posts
I am unfortunately going to agree with this from everything I have noticed. Yes you can bolt on a super but don't expect more than 150000 miles and better do it when new and have it properly tuned at minimum and don't thrash it or the rings are going to have issues. The hemi is very RPM dependent for a truck engine in my opinion and falls more inline with a car type engine that was used solely for streamlining reasons, I also have seen quite a few with issues in contrast to an army of 5.3/6.0 GM engines all in excess of 300k and working totally fine. Ford stuff though.......well it's always leaking at the manifolds and having other annoyances and no power but that's typical.

Of course you're going to reduce the life of an engine that's designed to be naturally aspirated by supercharging it, that's kind of an expectation when you do it. That's why people upgrade the sintered rods and hypereutectic pistons and change the rings. But that's not peculiar to the Hemi and if you look at the guys over on the Challenger/Charger boards they are getting 30k, 50k, and more on stock internals after supercharging. The guy who is taking over for me at work blew the bottom end out of his Coyote in 20,000 miles after putting a Roush blower on his Mustang.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
335 Posts
if you look at the guys over on the Challenger/Charger boards they are getting 30k, 50k, and more on stock internals
The guy who is taking over for me at work blew the bottom end out of his Coyote in 20,000 miles after putting a Roush blower on his Mustang.
I, and many others, believe that the Hemi is a better engine
This has nothing to do with brand loyalty
I'm gonna start calling you funnyhorse, because you're really funny XD
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
34,751 Posts
I'm gonna start calling you funnyhorse, because you're really funny XD
I am glad you enjoy it. I suppose if I thought the Coyote were better I'd be a Ford fanboy.

Out if curiosity, are you a mechanic or something? Curious where your perspective comes from
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'm really REALLY late replying to this, but I'm honestly embarrassed at what the problem was. It turns out that the MAP sensor was put in "perfectly wrong." Meaning, it was somehow moved to the perfect position to cause my engine to read incorrectly. My mechanic/tuner said he couldn't have done it on purpose if he tried. a simple twist and tighten fixed the problem like that. I ended up getting a professional tune anyway. That was back at the beginning of June and it's been running without an issue since. Other than the fact that my V6 e-fan failed so I put my factory e-fan and clutch fan back on.

I also just saw a YouTuber putting on the same kit on the same truck replace his O-rings on the MAP sensor, so that might be something anyone supercharging in the future might want to keep an eye on.
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top