DODGE RAM FORUM banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi, I got to admit that I’m desperate for some advice. While attempting to tap andthread a stripped out stud hole for the exhaust manifold bolts, a tap broke off on the last turn. (See attached before and after welding)

After the tap broke off, I used a referral to have an experienced machine shop mechanic come remove the tap and we’re having trouble removing the tap.

The mechanic tried to weld at least 15 nuts on to remove the tap, but nothing will stick to the tap, so he kept using an electric weld until he’s probably melted most of the tap away by now. However, the tap is still not completely out and he mentioned using a blow torch tomorrow to try and finish removing the tap. This is causing damage around the hole. (See attached)

Two questions:
  • Should I be concerned about the head continuing to be be burned off in spots around the stud hole?
  • Should he be filling that back in after welding? If so, how should I fix the imperfections around the hole after re-tapping it?
I’m growing concerned after watching the engine being welded for so long. Maybe I’m just being paranoid but would really appreciate any insight.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

model: 2013Ram 1500 5.7Hemi
 

Attachments

·
Registered
2014 8 Speed Hemi 3.92
Joined
·
1,413 Posts
Put grade 8 bolts on that side and torque them all to 25 ft-lbs and leave that one alone. Make sure you plane the manifold so you have a straight flange.

That head needs to come out and go on a drill press-mill with carbide tooling for a helical. looks pretty FUBAR’d to do much while on the block.

I constantly see more and more drill and extract failures. Cheap 110V flux MIG welders are fantastic for these and will fuse and nut/washer while the amperage will heat the bolt/head hot for easy removal. Plus, now you have a welder for all small home repairs...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Gene Kranz at Mission Control said years ago "If you don't know what to do, do nothing". Good advice.

I could go on about how you shouldn't have got to the place you are in, but I won't. To get out of this place you'll need someone who knows what they are doing. A wire feed welder is essential. Small "buttons" have to be welded on the tap to lengthen it to at least level with the head surface, if not slightly above. Then a nut can be welded to the lengthened stud. When finished the nut should be red hot, and allowed to cool slowly. Some like to tap on it gently with a hammer. Then attempt to turn it out. Big heat is essential. If it comes out there is enough thread left in the head to permit a new stud to be installed. However you mentioned that the hole was "stripped". How? Did the original stud tear out the threads, or did you drill off centre to use an extractor on the broken stud, and then decide to chase the thread that were left with a cheap tap?
The weld tracks I see look like a stick welder was used. Or was it a wire feed?
The head may have to be removed and the tap extracted by a very good machine shop, who can then install a time-sert which is a very good repair system. A Heli-coil might also work, but the head may be past the point where the latter will work.
Stop doing further damage. Evaluate the situation with someone who is skilled enough to offer a solution. So far you haven't found that person.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
I agree with a wire welder for the job but start with welding a washer to the broken tap and weld the nut to the washer. It's easier to get the wire to the broken part through the washer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,417 Posts
Drill a hole in it and go with a left-thread extractor drill in. should come out.
If not, you can drill it out and cut the thread new. I would not recommend to leave it off. if your "machine shop" can't drill that out, I don't know what they do, but they should not call themselves machine shop. I drilled hundreds of studs out during my career- the problem is not the stud or that it broke- the problem is, to have the right tools and to know, how to use them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
697 Posts
Typically taps are hardened steel. Good for cutting threads, but a brittle if side force is applied. And if they are Harbor Freight quality, well be warned. So because it is hardened it is just about impossible to drill it out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,417 Posts
Typically taps are hardened steel. Good for cutting threads, but a brittle if side force is applied. And if they are Harbor Freight quality, well be warned. So because it is hardened it is just about impossible to drill it out.
They're not completely hardened- they're surface hardened. The core is soft- has to be to be able to expand and contract at extreme temperature changes. I drilled plenty of bolts out. Use a diamond drill- as I said- you need to know, what tools you need and know, how to use them.
 

·
Registered
‘17 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4x2 5.7 Hemi
Joined
·
11 Posts
Can you reach to reverse drill it? Ensure you have a hard bit not brittle drill bit. As your drilling it should remove the tap as you go. My suggestion but not a major mechani. Best of luck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
348 Posts
Carbide bit, real slow speed, and kept lubed may do it, but I doubt it, unless you yank it off and get it in a drill press, you may be able to break it apart with a hammer and punch, but the weld attempt may now get in the way of that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Put grade 8 bolts on that side and torque them all to 25 ft-lbs and leave that one alone. Make sure you plane the manifold so you have a straight flange.

That head needs to come out and go on a drill press-mill with carbide tooling for a helical. looks pretty FUBAR’d to do much while on the block.

I constantly see more and more drill and extract failures. Cheap 110V flux MIG welders are fantastic for these and will fuse and nut/washer while the amperage will heat the bolt/head hot for easy removal. Plus, now you have a welder for all small home repairs...
I agree with the poster here. I had the same issue with one of my manifold bolts. The guy at my shop tried multiple times to remove the sheered bolt by welding a nut on it, but wasn't successful after about 8 tries. It was actually broken off below the head. He said he could try tapping it out, but it would be hit or miss and just advised me to just leave it as is. He was honest with me and said he didn't feel comfortable continuing on and that I could maybe find someone more experienced than he was with doing these welds. I took his advice, and I think rightly so. They had already replaced both manifolds (warped), and all the bolts except that one. I was fine with it, and so far (fingers crossed) it hasn't been an issue going on about 8 months now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
There ARE reversed drill bits... I'd start with a fairly small normal rotation drill bit & get it DEAD CENTER as the guide for the larger, reversed drill bit. The tap should come out fairly easily as the reversed drill bit bites in. Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
I'll pay good money to watch anyone drill a pilot hole in a four flute broken tap in situ. It isn't possible. There are companies that specialize in removing broken taps, and for that the cylinder head has to be removed.
Taps are brittle throughout, and will resist any drill bit, especially one held by hand.
If a nut cannot be welded successfully to the broken end of the tap in question, the cylinder head is coming off.
However I believe the original poster has left the building. Perhaps he's standing on a bridge somewhere.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
If you can remove the head find a machining company with a EDM drill or hole popper as we call it. $150-200 later that tap will be GONE and no damage to the threads or head or anything else. Go watch a youtube video about EDM drilling
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Years ago on my 1972 dodge truck, I broke a tape off and I took a center punch and hammer on the tap and broke the tap up and then removed the pieces. Then I drilled a size larger hole and was able to tap it. Good as new. Of course, for you that is after the fact. Sorry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,417 Posts
I'll pay good money to watch anyone drill a pilot hole in a four flute broken tap in situ. It isn't possible. There are companies that specialize in removing broken taps, and for that the cylinder head has to be removed.
Taps are brittle throughout, and will resist any drill bit, especially one held by hand.
If a nut cannot be welded successfully to the broken end of the tap in question, the cylinder head is coming off.
However I believe the original poster has left the building. Perhaps he's standing on a bridge somewhere.
There is a special tool for it. it's a mounting plate, which is mounted to the existing bolts. you can move it, that the phased out spaces are exactly around the hole, where you need to drill the bolt out. Then there is a guide mounted to the plate, which guides the drill exactly without sliding to the side. You use a diamond drill with a depth limiter, adjusted to the depth of the hole to drill. you drill the bolt out easy within minutes. I even had a 90° angled power drill, where I could go in tight spaces.
That's what I mean, when I'm talking about- having the right tools and knowing how to use it. Just because your tech can't do it, does not mean, it's impossible or has to be expensive. We charged 30 minutes labor for drilling a bolt out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Typically taps are hardened steel. Good for cutting threads, but a brittle if side force is applied. And if they are Harbor Freight quality, well be warned. So because it is hardened it is just about impossible to drill it out.
Why I NEVER buy any serious tools at Harbor Freight!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Hi, I got to admit that I’m desperate for some advice. While attempting to tap andthread a stripped out stud hole for the exhaust manifold bolts, a tap broke off on the last turn. (See attached before and after welding)

After the tap broke off, I used a referral to have an experienced machine shop mechanic come remove the tap and we’re having trouble removing the tap.

The mechanic tried to weld at least 15 nuts on to remove the tap, but nothing will stick to the tap, so he kept using an electric weld until he’s probably melted most of the tap away by now. However, the tap is still not completely out and he mentioned using a blow torch tomorrow to try and finish removing the tap. This is causing damage around the hole. (See attached)

Two questions:
  • Should I be concerned about the head continuing to be be burned off in spots around the stud hole?
  • Should he be filling that back in after welding? If so, how should I fix the imperfections around the hole after re-tapping it?
I’m growing concerned after watching the engine being welded for so long. Maybe I’m just being paranoid but would really appreciate any insight.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

model: 2013Ram 1500 5.7Hemi
They make a tap removal tool specifically for removing broken taps. If you can see the “flutes” and they are clear, then this might work for you. You will need to know the number of flutes (either 3 or 4) and size of the broken tap. These work great providing the welding attempts haven’t filled in the hole or flutes. Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Chief01
I completely agree with you Chief. I've had to remove many broken tape that I and others did. He wants to go one step further: use 'Tap Free'. This stuff is amazing! It completely breaks the metallurgical bond/interface between the tap and the tapped material making tapping and tap removal SIGNIFICANTLY easier. Using in the hole to be tapped results in nicer threads (easier, too) and less chance of tap breakage.
in 27 years of USCG Naval Engineering, believe me when I say I have removed plenty of taps.
the company website is Tap Free Website (hope I did that right).
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top