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Imagine trucks sitting for several hours waiting for batteries to be charged how much lost commerce would happen.
No need to imagine that because no commercial businesses are going to try subbing electric trucks for ICE powered trucks in any applications that would result in that outcome. As the video you posted makes clear, electric trucks are not a replacement for ICE trucks across all applications, but they are, right now, cost effective in some, short trip, situations that can be handled on a single charge.
They did not even complete the trip because they could not make it to the next charging station station and ended up calling for a flat bed to pick up the Tesla.
Sure, if what they were trying to do was compare ICE powered vehicle performance with EV performance. Nobody in their right mind is saying that EV's can replace ICE across the board, and yet the comparisons you continue to make, and the criticisms of EV's that you repeat over and over, are based on exactly that.
Local businesses would not fair well at all with electric powered work trucks as many trucks are loaded down getting product to the job site, that increases the amount of battery power used up as the videos showed.
What the video showed is that for any daily application which can be accommodated with a single charge—and for short trip, stop-and-start urban deliveries that's a lot of applications even in the commercial sector—electric vehicles are not only adequate, but actually save money. Business are going to adopt them where they make economic sense, and continue using ICE power where they don't.
I'm struggling to understand why you keep focused on current EV range limitations in situations where the EV can handle a day's work on a single charge.
This you can just charge it overnight as the cure won't work either, there is an A/C company where I live that must have 50 trucks, that means they would have to have 50 charging stations, the electrical service you would need to handle that load would be enormous.
The fix for situations where a commercial fleet needs to be charged overnight is not that difficult. Obviously that fleet operator already has space to park the trucks overnight, so real estate space is already handled. Ordering up and installing the extra electrical capacity so the fleet can be plugged in overnight is pretty much the only upgrade that will be required. Since upgrading the national electrical grid is something that we need to do as a nation anyway, that's really no big deal.
As the videos show these public charging stations will limit the amount of charge if all the stations are being used, one limited the guy in the video to an 80% charge. Other charging stations were only operational during certain hours such as 8:00 am to 5:00 pm.
Again, you're bringing up an issue that centers on the need to recharge during the day in order to continue with the day's vehicle duties.
What I'm trying to point out, and what the videos you posted clearly show, is that for applications that can be handled on a single charge (and that's already a lot of applications including most urban private commutes and many commercial endeavors) the issue of charge times and the current shortage of public charge stations is completely irrelevant.

EV's are coming, and the demand will be driven by the operational cost savings in those sectors where those savings exist, and ICE powered vehicles will remain dominant in those sectors where their clear range advantage exceeds the EV's ability to perform adequately.
This is going to happen, like it or not, as a result of market forces.
There will be no need for "government intervention" to manipulate fuel prices upwards. In fact, the only way that any government could slow down the adoption of EV's is if they manipulated fossil fuel prices downwards enough to eliminate the already existing operational cost savings that are discussed in the videos you posted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
I find your arguments for electric vehicles lacking, as the one video showed on their pulling the trailer using the same route they do their fuel economy runs on, they topped off the Tesla charge, had a Ram tow the trailer part of the way and they made only two runs one without the trailer and one with the trailer and they were out of power and had to locate a charging station that would take them hours to recharge at. This is a standard route they use and with 1500 series diesels they have completed the run using just 2 gallons of fuel. Lets run the diesels twice and say they used a total of 6 gallons of fuel the Ram would still have 20 gallons of fuel in the tank and could go a few hundred more miles before needing a fill up the Tesla would be out of service siting for a few hours receiving a full charge.

Sorry but work vehicles don't drive around like Grandpa with no where to go, they have schedules to keep and they will use up more electric power in a day than you want to admit.
 

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I find your arguments for electric vehicles lacking
I know.
lol
And I find your insistence on trying to directly compare EV performance with ICE performance to be a distraction from the points I'm trying to make and the very arguments presented in your video.
The conclusion reached in the video you posted about big trucks was that there is already a distinct operating cost advantage in certain applications. That being the case, it's inevitable that EV's will increasingly be adopted by commercial operators for those applications where that advantage is applicable.

I'm not saying that EV's can compete with diesel in big payload long haul applications, or even medium range applications.
It cannot
But if you are arguing for the idea that there are currently no applications where an EV can produce an operational cost savings, I will have to disagree. Just as the guy who produced the video you posted would disagree.

And my argument for EV use in the "soccer mom" and "daily commuter" market remains as valid as ever. The vast majority of urban commuter vehicles don't travel anywhere close to the maximum range on a single charge. Payload limitations and current low availability of public charging stations aren't especially relevant to this issue as yet, nor is there a need for an immediate build-out of electric infrastructure to accommodate it.
Sorry but work vehicles don't drive around like Grandpa with no where to go, they have schedules to keep and they will use up more electric power in a day than you want to admit.
There's more than one kind of "work vehicle".
As someone who made a decent living with a LD pickup truck as a "work vehicle" for decades as a younger guy, I have to disagree. It was routine for me to drive less than 40 miles a day, and most days I'd drive maybe half that. Only very rarely did I, or any of the tradespeople I worked with, need to drive a distance (or haul heavy freight) that would come anywhere close to an EV's single-charge range, and those situations could have been avoided easily enough by ordering a materials delivery.

A huge proportion of LD trucks and vans used as work vehicles in the plumbing, electrical, carpentry and other trades and services tend to drive just a very few miles (less than ten quite often) to the jobsite, park all day, then drive back home or to the company yard. Some few have multiple stops if the jobs they're performing are of short duration, but they're LD vehicles, so they don't carry big payloads - just normal tools and occasional supplies either on a roof rack or in a light trailer, and even then the total daily distance in an urban setting is going to be less than 100 miles. Either way, current EV tech can already accommodate that kind of usage without batting an eye.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
You must live in a nice tiny little town then, where I live it is nothing for people to have to travel long distances to get to their job site, your less than 40 miles a day is fantasy for most workers who work out in the field. that soccer mom you talk about could easily put 70 to 100 miles a day on a car during the week taking those little ones to school then to practice plus all the other running around that they need to get done.

It is only a matter of time before local and state governments start adding a road use tax onto electric vehicles that will be paid when you renew the registration, in some areas your registration is based on the value of your car already now add a road use tax on top of that and the cost becomes prohibitive for the average working family.

Also tax breaks are not going to last forever on electric vehicles just like they did not for hybrid vehicles. That Tesla SUV in the video cost $86,000 dollars and it is doubtful that they got any deal on it either.

The used electric vehicle market is not going to be worth it, you will be buying a car with batteries that are degrading and will need replacement at some point at a cost of several thousand dollars. Again the average working family is not going to be able to afford your electric vehicles.

Sorry but I don't see the big draw to electric vehicles.

We had a 2006 Honda Accord Hybrid and when the battery pack in it which was not a very big battery pack started to go bad Honda wanted $5,000 dollars for a new one. There was a guy in Colorado who was building his own battery packs that he would sell you for $2,500 dollars, we traded in the car and have not had another hybrid since.
 

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You must live in a nice tiny little town then, where I live it is nothing for people to have to travel long distances to get to their job site, your less than 40 miles a day is fantasy for most workers who work out in the field.
I used to live on the Gulf Coast of Texas for 25 years and made a living driving to job sites all the time in a half-ton truck. It was rare that I drove anywhere close to 100 miles in a day, and that was true for the tradespeople I worked with over the years too. A lot of jobs were within 10 miles of my house. In a densely populated metropolis that's perfectly commonplace for all kinds of tradespeople. That's not fantasy, it's personal experience.
I'm not claiming that's true for all tradepeople, but it's sure as hell true for a lot of them, even today.

And yeah, now I do live in a tiny little village (population 67) and the nearest services, schools and stores are 30 miles away. My neighbor uses an entry level Tesla all the time, winter and summer to commute 40 miles to an office clear on the other side of town all the time. He drives to Denver a couple of times a month too, which is 175 miles one way. He recharges there overnight and returns the next day. Never had a problem yet in 3 years of that schedule.
that soccer mom you talk about could easily put 70 to 100 miles a day on a car during the week taking those little ones to school then to practice plus all the other running around that they need to get done.
You're guessing, whereas I'm describing my own real world experiences of daily mileages as a working tradesperson, and the experiences of other tradespeople and current people I know.

EV's can and do work great in some applications, and deliver significant operational cost savings.
That's just a stone cold fact.
The technology will advance also, like technology always does, and that will move the needle even further into EV viability.

Your observations about battery life and replacement costs are certainly valid, and are noted. Your projections about road use taxes are noted also.
Nobody's claiming, or at least I'm not claiming, that EV's are some kind of magic bullet that will render fossil fuels unnecessary.
Nor am I suggesting that wide use of EV's won't have downsides. Of course they will. All human technologies have downsides. Just like the ICE/fossil fuel market has downsides. And some really big ones at that.

But Ev's do have a useful niche market already, and that market is just going to grow, and as it does more and more of the problems you're projecting will be resolved by a combination of technology and market forces. But yeah, downsides will remain. With every aspect of human technological development, downsides are—and will remain—ever present.
 

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Long distance towing with electric.


Who needs to worry about were each charging station is the entire time you are driving.

This trip which is really not that long they would spend an estimated 6 hours charging the batteries, who want to spend 6 hours waiting for batteries to charge.
The kids in the back seat:"ARE WE THERE YET"!!! DAD:"No, we have to charge the car"! KIDS:WHY DID YOU HAVE TO BUY THIS STUPID TOASTER ANYWAY"? "JOHNNY AND HIS FAMILY ARE ALREADY THERE"! DAD:Because "Sleepy Joey" Said they can't make fossil fuel vehicles anymore!
 

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One of the big things is zero emissions, but where is this electricity coming from? Coal, Natural Gas, Hydro, Wind, Solar, and Nuclear.

Coal and Natural gas cause emissions.
Hydro kills fish and there is a move on to eliminate small hydro plants
Wind is good when the wind blows.
Nuclear has this horrible waste to get rid of.
So just where is all this extra electricity going to come from?

And then we have to figure out how to recycle those batteries.

And then we have to redo the power grid.

And we have to do something before we run out of crude.
 

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where is this electricity coming from?
A lot of it will come from rooftop solar - EVs that are charged at home. Yes, a lot of charging will happen overnight when rooftop isn't producing, but a decent portion will happen between when the vehicle comes home and sunset. We'll see more rooftop on commercial buildings over time as well.
For fleet applications, there are control systems that will manage charging to the available capacity -- a fleet of 50 vehicles may only need capacity to charge 10 or 15 concurrently, and the management system will monitor the draw from each station and bring additional ones online as the first ones start to draw less after they start to reach capacity. Systems like this will also become common in hotels, office parks, etc., where vehicles tend to be parked longer than is needed to fully charge.
Do I expect to replace my RAM, which tows a car trailer long distances a few times a year, with an EV? Not probably in my lifetime, but I'm in my 60s :) . Will the guy that mows my lawn, who probably drives 40 or 50 miles/day find it makes sense? I think there's a good chance he would, and would be happy to have the lower maintenance cost as well as the fuel savings. Same with my buddy the carpenter, and my other pal the appliance repair guy, who might drive 100 miles/day.
My other vehicle, on the other hand, logged 40 miles/day when I was commuting to work, and another hundred or two on errands, etc. over a week. When it gets replaced, it'll probably be with an EV. My wife's car logs a bit more mileage, and goes on the occasional 200+ mile trip, but could probably count on my fingers the number of times in a year that it would need to be charged mid-trip. It's not due for replacement for a few years (we tend to keep our vehicles 10-12 years), so there's a good chance it'll be replaced by an EV.

And one anecdotal data point on rooftop system lifetimes -- we recently purchased a house with a rooftop system installed in 2006. I have the monthly production data since it was installed, and when I chart each month of the year by year (i.e., june 2006, june 2007, ... june 2020), there is no discernible drop in production in the first 15 years. Time will tell how it does in years 16-25, but I'm encouraged so far.
 

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Then let the technology speak for itself and stop shoving it down our throats. The people will adapt that can save money that way and the rest of us will not. That is Capitalism. My ass pocket will make the decision.
 

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For those who think electric vehicles are the answer what are you going to do when you have to recharge on the road and you pull up to a charging station only to find you are the 35 electric vehicle in line and it takes an average to 30 minutes to get a partial charge giving reduced range, you are looking at a good several hours before you get to your turn.

Charging stations take up a lot of room, just look at the Tesla charging stations each one takes up a parking spot and there are not that many electric vehicles on the road right now. Imagine huge parking lots having to be set up and people standing around for at least 30 minutes each for a partial charge, imagine a holiday travel period, how many hours would you be stuck waiting for a charging station to become open?

Forget the maintenance nightmare and costs of an electric vehicle.
You know what the REALLY hilarious part is? Several states (read: California. Bawahahahaha) have already overburdened power grids, have regular blackouts, rolling blackouts, etc. and the libbies/tree huggers want to add (force?) electric vehicles onto the system, and the sleepy joe admin wants to power ALL postal trucks electrically! Bawahahahaha. The kimchee will hit the fan soon enough when people can't use their air conditioners, wash clothes, etc. because the 'juice' is low!!!we
Bawahahahaha!!!!
 

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You know what the REALLY hilarious part is? Several states (read: California. Bawahahahaha) have already overburdened power grids, have regular blackouts, rolling blackouts, etc. and the libbies/tree huggers want to add (force?) electric vehicles onto the system, and the sleepy joe admin wants to power ALL postal trucks electrically! Bawahahahaha. The kimchee will hit the fan soon enough when people can't use their air conditioners, wash clothes, etc. because the 'juice' is low!!!we
Bawahahahaha!!!!
And they DON'T want nuclear (dangerous stuff 😂), DON'T want hydro (fishes can't swim upstream, and it makes it hard to get my yacht thru), DON'T want tidal (my yacht, again 😂), DON'T want solar farms (hurts my view and property values...do it, but around someone else's property. 😂😂), DON'T want turbine farms (same view and property excuse. 😕), DON'T want fossil fuel (bad juju when breathing, and the smog is already so bad you can hardly see where you're going 😕). AND, you CAN'T go back to horse and buggy because they might step in the 'exhaust'! 😂😂😂😂
talk about a conundrum!!!
😂😂😂😂😂😂
 

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Just look at cell phones- back then, it took 3 hours to charge a nokia 3310. today, it still takes over 2 hours to charge a complete empty phone. Battery technology seems to be stuck, as the system it self, batteries are based on has it's limts.
Alternative fuel cells are better and actually much more efficient- but- also even more dangerous.
For long range and trucks, IF EV, then only as hybrid, keeping the gasoline or diesel engine, being able to jump in, once the battery is empty- once for driving, once for recharging.
EV's are idealized - I still believe, a mix out of all 3 - gas/diesel, LPG/CNG and electric- is the key for the future.

And race hill farms- as you now mention the supply for the power needed- not only is Wind and Solar a wildlife killer, in some cases even fire starter, the infrastructure is completely missing- they can't get all the power they produce to the areas, where the power is needed. And if, as long as a small, local thunderstorm causes outages for hundreds of thousands, because of downed powerlines, it's like you can have the best car in the world- and no fuel.
And what would you do with all that extra spare time if your Nokia charged in 30 min instead of 3 hrs, lol. Much smaller battery and a very different type of battery. Battery tech did come a long way.
However.
Besides all other issues already mentioined, I don't believe there is enough readily available Lithium in the world to replace every single ICE vehicle with battery powered vehicle.
I also agree that there got to be a mix of different technologies until there is a tech that could be the future and the future will be electric but not in the form of batteries. Batteries are only good for city dwellers, that's it.
 

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I have rooftop solar. It was installed in December 2012, I already see a degradation of maybe 10%. Also charging directly from rooftop ( as opposed to drawing off the net) would be good from 9 A.M. to about 3 P.M. Just the times you'd be using your vehicle and not charging it. ( Blue is use, orange is solar generated )

138290
 

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Well OK, but nuclear power, at least nuclear fission power, is off the table for what are, ultimately, the overwhelming economic and safety reasons already discussed.
So it's not coming back no matter how strongly you support it.

Those plants still in operation are getting older and older and thus less and less reliable and more and more potentially dangerous. Decommissioning them safely, and sequestering the waste, is going to be staggeringly expensive, but nowhere near as expensive as doing nothing and ending up with an inevitable catastrophe.
Because make no mistake, that's absolutely where doing nothing will take us.
Those plants cannot be expected to run forever. No matter how much ongoing maintenance is undertaken, eventually all human-built devices wear out and cannot be repaired or maintained any further.

New nuclear plants are not happening and will not happen.
Existing nuclear plants are increasingly liabilities not assets.

This "hangover" is one of the many difficult inheritances we will leave our children, and the fact that you and many others choose not to believe any of it doesn't change that reality one tiny bit.
I am still trying to figure out why this thread is here, but anyway...

I think you are a bit misinformed about nuclear power generation. There are 2 brand new APWR units coming online in Waynesboro, GA. Vogtle 3 and 4. There is a new SMR being built as we speak. Nuclear power generation is the most highly regulated industry in the world, yet until the USA started fracking and thus producing copious amounts of natural gas which lowered the cost of NG to all time lows, nuclear power was the least expensive form of generation per megawatt. Sure, the existing fleet of reactors are getting older, but certainly not any less safe, again this is the most regulated industry in the world.

Yes, the big plants are getting expensive to operate and are being shut down and decommissioned, this is due to two market conditions mainly: 1) "Renewable" energy subsidies 2) Low cost NG. The utilities are all building NG plants as fast as they can and certainly some are closing their nukes. Economic reasons only as stated, not safety.

All fossil fuel plants have the same problems, they emit greenhouse gases. "Renewable" energy has problems with natural resource depletion, long-term disposal at EOL, environmental impacts from the supply of the resources required for storage of power (batteries). Nuclear has a problem with storage of nuclear waste.

Only fossil fuel and nuclear can currently provide true base load power. Humans are power hungry - we need base load power production. Nuclear will be here, it has to be. The new generation of SMR plants may be the answer.

Meanwhile - every developing nation outside of the African continent is building new nuclear power plants. Nuclear is only a "problem" in North America.
 

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I am still trying to figure out why this thread is here, but anyway...

Meanwhile - every developing nation outside of the African continent is building new nuclear power plants. Nuclear is only a "problem" in North America.
I 100% agree with you- but no- others are more stupid- like Germany, knowing, it cannot even keep up with the demand WITH Nuclear Power, they decided to shut them all down and do the green-renewable stuff- with the end result, that they are not even capable to produce 30% of needed power- all the power is mostly bought from neighboring countries, who- as smart as they are- built nuclear power plants close to the border to Germany and sell Germany their power.
The best twist- Germany has large salt stocks, used to store nuclear waste. Germany has therefore long term contracts for over 50+ years with those neighboring countries to store their nuclear waste there- of course for a fee. What now happens is, that as Germany had their plants running, the waste was relatively low compared to today, as there were not many border near plants in the neighboring countries, as it was not needed. Now, as everyone has those plants to "support" Germany, they send about 3x the waste to Germany for storage- and Germany is worse off with the waste than ever before. At the same time, as NG is cheap, they decided also to build NG Plants- but unfortunately, NG is something, Germany has just very limited, as the only source is in the Northern Sea, in joint venture with other European countries. As the former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder was a Russia-lover and made plenty of deals with Russia, after he got voted out, Russia gave him right away a CEO-position at the Russian Gaz Prom. There, he used his relationships with German politicians to start up a significant increase of energy-business- oil and gas from Russia. As now he is behind the deal with the Nordstrom Pipeline, President Trump wanted to block, as he seem to be the only one to see, what it means, if this pipeline is built and makes basically the energy-situation of western Europe to 80% dependent on Russian gas. Instead of making a deal with other Western allies, Germany wants this pipeline, as it will make a very few very rich.
America is on a similar path, as if the US can't supply their own energy needs, they will depend more and more on people who hate the US- and guess, what will eventually happen, if they have the power to shut the country down? I don't want to talk it into reality- but this is the 100% mixture for another world war.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Thread is here because Ford is releasing their F150 Lighting electric pickup.

More information that shows electric vehicles are no where near ready for prime time:

 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
You know what the REALLY hilarious part is? Several states (read: California. Bawahahahaha) have already overburdened power grids, have regular blackouts, rolling blackouts, etc. and the libbies/tree huggers want to add (force?) electric vehicles onto the system, and the sleepy joe admin wants to power ALL postal trucks electrically! Bawahahahaha. The kimchee will hit the fan soon enough when people can't use their air conditioners, wash clothes, etc. because the 'juice' is low!!!we
Bawahahahaha!!!!
California also already has the biggest electric power station network for electric vehicles and 20% of those who buy electric vehicles in California walk away dissatisfied going back to combustion engine vehicles.
 

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... Will the guy that mows my lawn, who probably drives 40 or 50 miles/day find it makes sense? I think there's a good chance he would, and would be happy to have the lower maintenance cost as well as the fuel savings. Same with my buddy the carpenter, and my other pal the appliance repair guy, who might drive 100 miles/day. ...
Do any of these guys drive brand new 2500-3500 HD trucks? I doubt which means they wouldn't be able to afford the new electric trucks either, no matter the savings. Most of the time you know what you could expect when buying used vehicles, in most cases you just keep on doing the regular maintenance until you start getting into high mile range when more parts need to be replaced. I didn't research but I'll guarantee that a substantial cost of an EV is the battery. Buying a usedEV truck and then replacing a battery pack few years down the road isn't something that your gardener could afford.
 

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LOL
Natural gas, nuclear, fossil fuels, hydro, wind, solar, economics, politics, damn hippies, right-wing loons, tree-hugging idiots, heartless greedy capitalists, filthy socialist scum — go ahead and name your favorite villain.

Meanwhile, just for grins, let's pull back and widen the lens a bit.

Let's put the problems of continued growth of energy generation (and there are plenty of problems there for sure) on the back burner for a minute and talk about Math, the Laws of Thermodynamics, and what they have to say about continued growth of energy consumption.

Here's a nice primer on the topic.

The "it's too long so I don't want to read and study it" version is simple enough; how we generate our energy is not the fundamental problem, the real problem is the growth rate of how much energy we consume.

Physics and math say that if we continue to grow our energy consumption at exponential rates (exponentials are the fascinating math part) we hit a thermodynamic limit so long as we occupy a planet of finite size (that's the Laws of Thermodynamics part).

So ultimately it doesn't matter if we magically generate our energy on the moon and transport it to earth using Harry Potter's magic wand, we hit a planetary thermodynamic limit if our energy consumption growth continues, regardless of where the energy is generated, or how.

But wait! Math? Physics?
What kind of tree-hugger madness is this??
 

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LOL
Natural gas, nuclear, fossil fuels, hydro, wind, solar, economics, politics, damn hippies, right-wing loons, tree-hugging idiots, heartless greedy capitalists, filthy socialist scum — go ahead and name your favorite villain.

Meanwhile, just for grins, let's pull back and widen the lens a bit.

Let's put the problems of continued growth of energy generation (and there are plenty of problems there for sure) on the back burner for a minute and talk about Math, the Laws of Thermodynamics, and what they have to say about continued growth of energy consumption.

Here's a nice primer on the topic.

The "it's too long so I don't want to read and study it" version is simple enough; how we generate our energy is not the fundamental problem, the real problem is the growth rate of how much energy we consume.

Physics and math say that if we continue to grow our energy consumption at exponential rates (exponentials are the fascinating math part) we hit a thermodynamic limit so long as we occupy a planet of finite size (that's the Laws of Thermodynamics part).

So ultimately it doesn't matter if we magically generate our energy on the moon and transport it to earth using Harry Potter's magic wand, we hit a planetary thermodynamic limit if our energy consumption growth continues, regardless of where the energy is generated, or how.

But wait! Math? Physics?
What kind of tree-hugger madness is this??
We are not talking about facts- Scientists already fooled the world with the fake Dinosaur- theory and everyone knows, that the birds are government drones wo spy on us. The lockdown in name of Covid was just a scam to be able for the government to replace the batteries in the birds.
 
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