Had some pulsing when pushing the break pedal and an independent shop said that my pads are "ok" at 5mm - 6mm but that my rotors are warped. Suggested we replace all 4 rotors and pads - $720. While the truck is a 2015 it only has about 49k miles on it. With this mileage does it seem odd that the rotors are warped? I'm pretty sure they did not take all four off which is why they could not tell me which specific rotors.
TwinDad03
Yeah, that mileage does seem a bit low, unless the truck has been driven in such a way that the brakes overheated ( like riding the brakes on long downhills, say, or some other hard brake usage). A warped rotor will certainly give pedal pulsations when braking, for sure.
Most of the work when braking is done by the front brakes, so front rotors are more likely to be warped from excessive heat than the rears, but all 4 could be affected.
It's not hard to check if a rotor is warped or not with a dial gauge, and any good shop should be both able and willing to evaluate if you really need all 4 new rotors or just a pair (you would want to change them in pairs, either both fronts, or both rears, or all 4, not just one front etc.)
Personally, if I was replacing rotors, I'd put new pads in with them too, rather that reuse the old ones, even if they do still have some meat left on them.
Most of the work when braking is done by the front brakes, so front rotors are more likely to be warped from excessive heat than the rears, but all 4 could be affected.
It's not hard to check if a rotor is warped or not with a dial gauge, and any good shop should be both able and willing to evaluate if you really need all 4 new rotors or just a pair (you would want to change them in pairs, either both fronts, or both rears, or all 4, not just one front etc.)
Personally, if I was replacing rotors, I'd put new pads in with them too, rather that reuse the old ones, even if they do still have some meat left on them.
I spoke with them again (a different advisor), and they revised what they initially told me - it's $720 for two (front) rotors and break pads. I'm going to call around as that seems crazy high.
I've done this before years ago on a different vehicle and if that is the going rate will probably do it myself.
I've done this before years ago on a different vehicle and if that is the going rate will probably do it myself.
That is crazy high.
An entire set of Powerstop pretty fancy drilled and slotted rotors with carbon fiber pads for both front wheels can be found online for about $200.
Going with good OEM level replacements from Powerstop would likely run about half that.
I bet there's a YouTube video that walks through the whole process, too.
An entire set of Powerstop pretty fancy drilled and slotted rotors with carbon fiber pads for both front wheels can be found online for about $200.
Going with good OEM level replacements from Powerstop would likely run about half that.
I bet there's a YouTube video that walks through the whole process, too.
Not uncommon depending on driving conditions or if it sat in water. My 2014 F150 had the same issue at about 60k miles. But I changed pads and rotors myself for about $150. Wagner rotors and Bosch quietcast pads were the closet things I found to OEM...at least for my Ford. Good combo.
So let me qualify my thoughts. I am instructor in a college that teaches automotive technology. So if your rotors have 50k on them and pads have minimal life IE the 5mm or so, you dont have metal to metal. If (and I doubt it) they did a run out measurement the allowable is .002, variation thickness is .0005 so not much. Minimum thickness of the rotor is 1.039" So here is some ammo. What is my rotor thickness? They really should just resurface the rotors and put you a new set of ceramic pads on there. On the high end pads might run $70 or so. The time to resurface on the car rotors which is the way they should be done is 1.7 hours max according to what I see. Thats just fronts. As mentioned rears dont wear near as fast. .7 of hour for pads and .4 for resurface of rotor, so guessing thats each. I dont know what they get for labor rates, but around here dealer gets about $85 I think. I would say if your rotors are so far gone they have to be replaced vs resurfaced they would shake your teeth out, even if they are not false ones. Good luck
Brake rotors can warp for a number of reasons, if you got the brakes hot and went through a puddle can cause rotors to warp, just driving and getting the brakes hot can cause them to warp. A panic stop and a quick cool down can cause a rotor to warp. If someone rides the brakes can cause a rotor to warp. Someone improperly tightening the lug nuts can cause a rotor to warp, that is why you must use a torque wrench to tighten lug nuts.
Most shops will not turn a rotor anymore, I think the car manufactures in order to get weight down for fuel mileage forced upon them by the federal government have made the rotors as thin as they can get away with. Turning a modern rotor usually ends up with a warped rotor in no time because there is just not as much material on the rotor as there used to be.
You can get Power stop oem replacement pads and rotors for $187 for all four wheels or step up to the Power stop Z23 brakes with pads and rotors for extra stopping performance for $429. Buying the parts and doing it yourself is much better I’m my opinion to paying some shop $700 just for the front. And for $828 you can get Power stop Z23with pads, rotors and calipers what have been rebuilt with better than oem parts. I recently with the last package on my truck, but with Power stop Z36 since I have larger tires, carry a lot of weight and tow frequently. The power Stop brakes are a great improvement over oem. It’s a night and day difference.
It has been my experience that if you live in a rainy City (like Seattle) with lots of hills, or mountain passes (like Seattle)
and commute in heavy traffic, it is best to change rotors each time you change pads. The larger the rotor the more easily they warp due to heat and moisture. Also opt for softer pads like organic. The rotors will outlast the pads and not get so hot from semi-metallic or ceramic pads. Just my experience from maintaining my gen 2 Dakota and Durango.
and commute in heavy traffic, it is best to change rotors each time you change pads. The larger the rotor the more easily they warp due to heat and moisture. Also opt for softer pads like organic. The rotors will outlast the pads and not get so hot from semi-metallic or ceramic pads. Just my experience from maintaining my gen 2 Dakota and Durango.
I appreciate everyone's responses. Live in Austin so taking the recent snow storm out of the equation (had issue before then) not a lot of weather variation between seasons and not super wet. I'm going to take a look at the Powerstops. We tow a boat 1x or 2x a year to the dealer so will probably look at the Z23's. Looks like a straight forward job but will have to purchase a break piston compression tool.
Brake Klean is best bet to get anti-rust stuff off rotors. To compress pistons back you can use the old pads against piston. If you have a large pair of channel locks they should push it back. Leave one caliper put together while pushing the other back, then install it before pushing the second back on each axle. Reason is if you dont and the other is off it could push the piston completely out and then its a mess.
I accidentally pushed a piston too far in once...had to lightly pump the brakes to get it to poke back out lol.
After I installed suspension and engine mods I decided to upgrade the brakes. Went with Powerstop Evolution rotors and Bosch Premium Quietcast ceramic pads (I don't do any towing or extra heavy hauling). Huge improvement. Bro-in-law who drives a 2020 Bighorn drove my truck and first thing he said was how much better my truck braked than his. Did it myself, total cost was ~360.
My Uncle, God rest his sole, was the best mechanic I EVER knew. He, and a friend of mine always said, DO NOT COMPROMISE WITH YOUR VEHICLES BREAKS, IT'S NICE TO GO, BUT BETTER WHEN YOU CAN STOP! Buy really good pads & rotors. I do my own, it's not hard and saves a LOT of money!
The rotors are not "warped", the only way to do that is heat them red hot, which short of racing or a seriously hung caliper and a long steep down hill run at high speed you will have never got them that hot..... Have you ever seen your brakes actually smoking or rotors glowing?
What you do have is deviation in the rotor face, excessive run-out, or a combination, which can be a result of cheap poor quality rotors, that because of the deviations in the "cheap" rotor at install become more pronounced with age.
However, the primary reason for most rotor pulsing is due to improper seating of pads, and or overheating of pad material, tends to happen with cheaper "organic" and or semi metallic pads. Basically what you feel is a very tiny raise in the rotor surface due to pad material being "imprinted" on the rotor face due to a hot stop, i.e. long run-out off ramp and then coming to a stop at the end and holding firm brake pressure. It causes a very tiny amount of the pads face to stick to the rotor. This "raised" spot over time cause both the pad and rotor face to wear unevenly, resulting in a pulsation in the brake system. Which if bad enough can be exacerbated by the ABS system, as the ABS system "feels" pending tire lockup and releases pressure.
This problem can also be brought on by limited irregular use as the rotor faces rust or becomes contaminated and then is improperly scrubbed clean.
Also improperly and over torqued lug nuts, particularly when high heat due to heavy braking is added. For this try loosing and correctly retorquing lugs. (also ask for hand tightening only when having tire or other work done in which rim is removed)
To minimize brake pulse over the long term, follow a proper brake pad seating procedure (I personally like Power stops procedure and have found it effective).
To attempt to clear brake pulse when first noticed, attempt a brake pad seating procedure as it may be able to "clean" the rotor surface and "re-seat" the pads.
To minimize pulse resulting from long term inactivity, slowly move vehicle while dragging brakes lightly, increasing speed and brake pressure, this only need to be a 100 - 200 feet or so. Then utilize a brake pad seating process to re-seat the pads.
I thought as others do for years that I had "warped" rotors. But after issues with a truck I read up on "warping rotors" and imprinting pad meat on the rotor face, and how to attempt to clear it....Sure as heck it worked. I am now very meticulous with my brake pad seating process as it is the most important step other than proper brake install......
Like installing a flat tappet cam.... If you do not follow the break-in process for the cam and lifters its only a matter of time until the system fails.
Finally, I am not a certified mechanic, but have been doing brakes on my cars, families cars, friends cars, etc. for decades. I am so picky that I do not let anyone work on my brake systems. I aslo do my research when I have an issue. There are many good articles on this issue on the net. Here is one I thought was on point, however they do not go in to much detail about how to decrease the likelihood and in my opinion the importance's of seating brake pads, but again there is a lot of info out there on this issue.
www.mechanic.com.au
What you do have is deviation in the rotor face, excessive run-out, or a combination, which can be a result of cheap poor quality rotors, that because of the deviations in the "cheap" rotor at install become more pronounced with age.
However, the primary reason for most rotor pulsing is due to improper seating of pads, and or overheating of pad material, tends to happen with cheaper "organic" and or semi metallic pads. Basically what you feel is a very tiny raise in the rotor surface due to pad material being "imprinted" on the rotor face due to a hot stop, i.e. long run-out off ramp and then coming to a stop at the end and holding firm brake pressure. It causes a very tiny amount of the pads face to stick to the rotor. This "raised" spot over time cause both the pad and rotor face to wear unevenly, resulting in a pulsation in the brake system. Which if bad enough can be exacerbated by the ABS system, as the ABS system "feels" pending tire lockup and releases pressure.
This problem can also be brought on by limited irregular use as the rotor faces rust or becomes contaminated and then is improperly scrubbed clean.
Also improperly and over torqued lug nuts, particularly when high heat due to heavy braking is added. For this try loosing and correctly retorquing lugs. (also ask for hand tightening only when having tire or other work done in which rim is removed)
To minimize brake pulse over the long term, follow a proper brake pad seating procedure (I personally like Power stops procedure and have found it effective).
To attempt to clear brake pulse when first noticed, attempt a brake pad seating procedure as it may be able to "clean" the rotor surface and "re-seat" the pads.
To minimize pulse resulting from long term inactivity, slowly move vehicle while dragging brakes lightly, increasing speed and brake pressure, this only need to be a 100 - 200 feet or so. Then utilize a brake pad seating process to re-seat the pads.
I thought as others do for years that I had "warped" rotors. But after issues with a truck I read up on "warping rotors" and imprinting pad meat on the rotor face, and how to attempt to clear it....Sure as heck it worked. I am now very meticulous with my brake pad seating process as it is the most important step other than proper brake install......
Like installing a flat tappet cam.... If you do not follow the break-in process for the cam and lifters its only a matter of time until the system fails.
Finally, I am not a certified mechanic, but have been doing brakes on my cars, families cars, friends cars, etc. for decades. I am so picky that I do not let anyone work on my brake systems. I aslo do my research when I have an issue. There are many good articles on this issue on the net. Here is one I thought was on point, however they do not go in to much detail about how to decrease the likelihood and in my opinion the importance's of seating brake pads, but again there is a lot of info out there on this issue.
Solved: The Mystery of Warped Brake Rotors
www.mechanic.com.au
I went with "cheap" rotors from Napa only once, they warped in less than 18 months, the front end of my Dakota shook like crazy when I step on the brakes, after that issue, I decided to go with the premium pads and brakes and never looked back!
FYI, most shops do a proper job on replacing brake pads, etc.....They just tend to quite at replacing the hardware. They either forget or just plain don't do seating the brakes after new brake install. Most believe it is no longer needed with the new materials, and therefore no need to heat the pads to allow them to outgas, etc. as was the case decades ago with older brake pad compounds.
But as with metal, tempering is what makes the metal stronger when done right.
But as with metal, tempering is what makes the metal stronger when done right.
Octane - you are correct, softer pads will provide better rotor life as far as wear. However, the softer pads are more prone to the problem, and the newer rotor designs and thicknesses are not really designed or capable of being resurfaced repeatedly. In the old days you could turn a set of rotors 4 or 5 times before the tolerances became to close. Most of todays rotors you get 1 maybe 2, but then you also have to deal with the heat dissipation and how it interacts with the rims clamping forces.
In short, a 70s truck will have a smaller diameter but much thicker rotor from the factory. Hub style rotors have always lasted longer then the slide on ones in every aspect.
As for the hard pads, and todays rotors. That's why you buy a quality rotor, and pad system, and again rotors today really are designed to be replaced at every brake job, at least IMO.
In short, a 70s truck will have a smaller diameter but much thicker rotor from the factory. Hub style rotors have always lasted longer then the slide on ones in every aspect.
As for the hard pads, and todays rotors. That's why you buy a quality rotor, and pad system, and again rotors today really are designed to be replaced at every brake job, at least IMO.
I used to have a 2000 F250 that ate brake rotors. I couldn’t get more than 25K-35K out of a set. We finally discovered why. I used the truck extensively to tow boats that I went fishing in. I fished mainly the big bend Gulf coast area. The ramps in that area are very shallow necessitating backing way down the ramp into the water. Hot brake rotors from the trip down, dipping directly into cool salt water = warped rotors. FYI: never solved the problem, just learned to live with pulsing brake pedal. Strange, but after I sold that truck, I never again had that problem with Dodge or GM trucks.
Yes quenching hot metal can increase deformities already in the metal. Cheap rotors tend not to have consistent molecular structures throughout the rotor face. The combination of which means that there will be sections of the face in which the rotor surface is "harder" then others and the result is variation in thickness.
The other issue, that I have personally experienced and if left un checked/resolved will lead to permanent deformation is over torques lug nuts and hot rotors. The over torqued lugs on the rim act as a vice on the rotors hub surface. When intensely heated the metal naturally expends and becomes more "pliable" the result is the rotor will tweak / "warp" as a result. If left uncorrected it will result in permanent damage to the rotor.
Going back to my statement of "warping" rotors or having "warped" rotors, is that most people that say they have a "warped" rotor particularly with in the 1st 5000 - 10000 miles, is actually a result of pad material being imprinted on the rotor face. And for those that do not Tow heavy, drive spirited for an lengthy period at once, or do not drag brakes or haul heavy loads down steep hills, tend to never warp their rotors but instead just leave pad material on the face.
In most of these cases if caught before real wear anomalies take place, a proper brake pad seating procedure can usually remove the build up left by the pad material when such even takes place...
In short, I am just trying to get guys to run a proper brake seating procedure before spending a ton on replacing what most likely is good brake components that just have pad material build up / imprint on the rotor face.
I have found that since I have learned about this, and started using a brake seating procedure at the 1st sign of even the slightest pulsing that I have been able to run a set of pads for their full usable life. I will also add that I do tend to change out front rotors with every brake job up thru at least 130K miles. After that it depends on vehicle condition (i.e. rusted / looking at replacing in 18 months or less), rotor condition (i.e. grooving in rotor face, discoloration, excessive run out, excessive glazing), or clearly defined issue that would warrant rotor replacement, (i.e. hung or hanging caliper that has caused brakes to over heat or nearly over heat). Rear rotors, I tend to scuff face with sandpaper and replace pads as they usually do not require replacement until 75K - 100K miles, and as they only provide about 10% of the braking force in most occurrences, they do not get the heat cycling and the resulting issues that the fronts can and tend too.
I will add a clause to my last statement, my 2019 Ram is the first truck I have had that has traction control and the other stability systems that utilize the brakes. My only other vehicles that I have dealt with any traction and controls systems are an 06 Freestar and my 15 Rav4 AWD. The van hand no power to the rear and the Rav4 is both light and the rear axle is only engage when there is a loss of traction so the rear brake activity/wear seems to be more along the lines of a normal front wheel drive. My expectation is that my Ram, particularly with the fact that I have the Hemi, as well as its extremely sophisticated traction and stability system that has continued to surprise me with what it can do, will need rear pads much sooner and more frequent then any other truck or car I have ever owned. As a result, it will most likely be the 1st that I replace the rear rotors well before it reaches 100K miles.
I also assume I will be replacing the pads at least 60% sooner than on any other car or truck I have owned due to this as well. I usually can get at least 50K if not almost 70K on pads barring any caliper issues, etc. and the type of driving the vehicle sees regularly (i.e. northern NJ I was about 45K-55K with stop and go highway, North Central Mass and SW Virginia closer to 70K)
The other issue, that I have personally experienced and if left un checked/resolved will lead to permanent deformation is over torques lug nuts and hot rotors. The over torqued lugs on the rim act as a vice on the rotors hub surface. When intensely heated the metal naturally expends and becomes more "pliable" the result is the rotor will tweak / "warp" as a result. If left uncorrected it will result in permanent damage to the rotor.
Going back to my statement of "warping" rotors or having "warped" rotors, is that most people that say they have a "warped" rotor particularly with in the 1st 5000 - 10000 miles, is actually a result of pad material being imprinted on the rotor face. And for those that do not Tow heavy, drive spirited for an lengthy period at once, or do not drag brakes or haul heavy loads down steep hills, tend to never warp their rotors but instead just leave pad material on the face.
In most of these cases if caught before real wear anomalies take place, a proper brake pad seating procedure can usually remove the build up left by the pad material when such even takes place...
In short, I am just trying to get guys to run a proper brake seating procedure before spending a ton on replacing what most likely is good brake components that just have pad material build up / imprint on the rotor face.
I have found that since I have learned about this, and started using a brake seating procedure at the 1st sign of even the slightest pulsing that I have been able to run a set of pads for their full usable life. I will also add that I do tend to change out front rotors with every brake job up thru at least 130K miles. After that it depends on vehicle condition (i.e. rusted / looking at replacing in 18 months or less), rotor condition (i.e. grooving in rotor face, discoloration, excessive run out, excessive glazing), or clearly defined issue that would warrant rotor replacement, (i.e. hung or hanging caliper that has caused brakes to over heat or nearly over heat). Rear rotors, I tend to scuff face with sandpaper and replace pads as they usually do not require replacement until 75K - 100K miles, and as they only provide about 10% of the braking force in most occurrences, they do not get the heat cycling and the resulting issues that the fronts can and tend too.
I will add a clause to my last statement, my 2019 Ram is the first truck I have had that has traction control and the other stability systems that utilize the brakes. My only other vehicles that I have dealt with any traction and controls systems are an 06 Freestar and my 15 Rav4 AWD. The van hand no power to the rear and the Rav4 is both light and the rear axle is only engage when there is a loss of traction so the rear brake activity/wear seems to be more along the lines of a normal front wheel drive. My expectation is that my Ram, particularly with the fact that I have the Hemi, as well as its extremely sophisticated traction and stability system that has continued to surprise me with what it can do, will need rear pads much sooner and more frequent then any other truck or car I have ever owned. As a result, it will most likely be the 1st that I replace the rear rotors well before it reaches 100K miles.
I also assume I will be replacing the pads at least 60% sooner than on any other car or truck I have owned due to this as well. I usually can get at least 50K if not almost 70K on pads barring any caliper issues, etc. and the type of driving the vehicle sees regularly (i.e. northern NJ I was about 45K-55K with stop and go highway, North Central Mass and SW Virginia closer to 70K)
This happened to my 1997 Ram when it was new and I had it in their shop for repairs no less than 10 times! In fact, at one point their mechanic told me 'that's how trucks ride'. A friend of mine told me to drive slowly down the road and brake using my Emergency Brake with the handle pulled (so it wouldn't lock in place) and if it didn't shutter the rotors were warped. That's what it was.... I still had to argue with the dealership but they finally fixed them. Mine had less than 25K miles when this started. Once they changed the rotors, never happened again. long answer but might be a historical rotor issue with Rams. I'd inquire about a potential recall or a service bulletin via FC.
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