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Looking at new 2020 Big Horn. The sales guy sent me a breakdown of the fees. I know the dealers try to improve their bottom line by adding certain fees. Which of these fees would you say the dealer added to improve their profit, thereby giving me some negotiating room?

Doc Fee 85
Lic Fee 383
reg Fee 251
esf Fee 28
Tire Fee 8.75
dmv file 30
Lojack 795
Dent 895 (I am told this will cover any dents up to the size of a credit card with 0 deductible)
theft reg 189
weight fee 154

Thanks!
OMG all of this appears to be crap. In my state you pay for plates, licence and state and local taxes. The dealer can eat his document fees, that's what his profit on the car is supposed to pay for. Tell him to knock it off the price of the car or you walk.
God, just say no to Lojack. It's a rip off. There are cheaper services available aftermarket. Worse it won't lower your insurance much. Check with insurance to see. You will be amazed.
Dent fee: That's what collision and comprehensive insurance is for. What a joke.
Theft Reg: Are you kidding? Registering with who?
ESF fee? Again, who gets this? The state?
Weight Fee? Is that something your state imposes? Tell them to drop it or prove it's a tax.
DMV fee: Whose getting that? Are you DMV or the dealer?
Licencing fee: Bogus, unless your state requires it.


Hey, I actually enjoy buying and selling cars and boats..... It's sort of a hobby of mine. And I've made some good money at it over the years. My #1 suggestion is this:

Read "What Car Dealers Don't Want You to Know". The latest version is at....
What Car Dealers Don't Want You to Know: Eskeldson, Mark: Amazon.com: Books


Basically the book says do your homework before you walk in.... Take control.

My strategy is basically this:

Negotiate new car price only, do not trade in. Sell it privately. Do it before you buy the new car, or after you buy the new car. Remember you can refinance the new car (after the sale) with a smaller loan using the cash you get from a private sale of your old car. This can be done weeks and months later even..

Negotiate price only, not payment or trades or financing. To do this successfully, you MUST walk in with pre-approved financing for the full amount (less the cash down) you intend to buy the car for. Bring bank check with you. Waive the check in front of them. You are now in control. You have already used online price guides to determine what that new or used car should cost today. Show them the numbers. Tell them how you are financing it at that price, what taxes, fees and and delivery should be (aka the "out the door" price). Do all the calculations yourself before you arrive. Now you are really in control. If you want, give them a chance to better the out-the-door number you came up with. But make sure it is really an out-the-door price. Write down on their contract "Out-the=Door" price, including taxes, fees and extras = $XX,XXX. This is the top line number they have to make fit. Walk out if they won't do it.

To do this you must know what you want. Before you walk in the door you've reviewed multiple dealer inventories, and have the pricing data on the one car (or two) at that dealer you want. Walk out if you can't come to a settled price in 15 minutes on that car. Don't let them near your car, or take your car for review for a trade. While they have your car, you can't leave, and they know it. That's just one reason NOT to TRADE!!!!

Once you think you have settled on the price and financing, and are signing the paperwork, the real dealer upselling "commences to begin". This is obviously where you are in trouble on this deal. You thought you were done. You never are done until you leave with the car. They will try to sell you all sorts of car-crap. Don't buy any of it!!!! They will push stuff like paint-sealing, fabric protector, prepaid maintenance, bogus administration and document prep fees, title processing fees, rustproofing, an overpriced extended warranty, VIN theft protection etching, lifetime waxes, lifetime washes, GPS theft locator services, additional theft alarm, Lojack is just another theft retrieval service (and not one of the better ones), "lifetime" maintenance, "prepaid" oil changes you will never use, loan payment protection (a form of life insurance), and who knows what else. It looks like your dealer has gotten really creative in this department. You can even get offered identity theft protection (more bogus insurance) at some dealers.

IT'S ALL OVERPRICED JUNK! that ADDS DEALER PROFIT.

One aside, if you aren't satisfied with the basic manufacturer warranty and want an extended warranty, don't buy it from the dealer while buying the car. Go home and comparison shop for it just like you shop online for the lowest price for liability and comprehensive car insurance...... Because it is insurance, and it's offered by hundreds of companies, and I guarantee you can find it cheaper than the dealer's policy, which is padded to increase dealer profit.

Regarding trading a car, any car. When selling a car, do it privately, preferably before you buy the new car, so you have the cash to negotiate. And unless you are an evil genius, you will get your numbers wrong in trying to keep track of the trade and the new car and the incentives and taxes and fees. Beware the "4 square" worksheet. You will see it. Its crap. Bottom line: it's best if you do NOT try to negotiate a trade and buy a car at the same time. The main reason is that you lose 20% to 50% of the car's value when you trade compared to selling it privately. Plainly put, YOU LOSE when trading in a car. ALWAYS.


Good luck to you..
 

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Actually, Nitrogen is better for use in tires due to the properties of the gas versus Air.
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BS on Nitrogen in tires. Air is composed of 78 percent nitrogen. Oxygen accounts for 21 percent, and the inert noble gas argon makes up 0.9 percent of the air. The remaining 0.1 percent consists of several trace gases. Most of the 0.1 percent is carbon dioxide.
 

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The only known, documented advantage (and its a very small one) nitrogen. Moisture and humidity isn't what makes your tire go flat. Your rims don't rust because of the little moisture inside the tire, it's the sun, rain, salt, and road chemicals that kill your tires and rims -- from the outside. And whatever advantage you gain by filling your tires with nitrogen is offset by fact that its only adding nitrogen to the air that is already there because we live in a atmosphere that is made up of 70% nitrogen and other gasses already. Plus the first time you have to adjust your tire pressure, most likely where nitrogen is not available, all the supposed advantages are offset by the plain air you pump in.

Nitrogen in tires. What a joke.
 

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Yep... and that's why I don't go crazy with the sale price per se. I want an out the door price. You can do whatever you want adding fees, etc but when all is said and done I know what I want and will pay for this vehicle. I've shopped around so you can quote me whatever you want and try to add it back but if the out the door price is changed... i'm out the door. Some would argue I might not get the absolute lowest possible price and they might be right but I DO KNOW I got a hell of a deal, otherwise I didn't buy it. I had one dealer tell me his out the door price with all the fees and when I showed up it was an additional 1,700 higher on the paper work. Luckily for him it was a short drive. An even shorter visit. Went something like this.... "Did I not ask you the out the door price with all of the fees and such. The here's your check price." he says yes but.... I stopped him before he finished. Told him I don't need to know the buts. I only need to know whether you are going to adjust whatever it takes to get that price back to where we agreed. He says, "I can try but..." I stopped him again. I can save you the effort. "There is a reason I call it the out the door price." I got up and left.. with him of course asking me to see what he could do. Never got another response from me. Called 3 days later saying his manager approved. Told him no thanks. I used the price we agreed upon (emailed to me) to get the same vehicle at another dealer with a couple of additional things I didn't need but hey... i'll take 'em. Too many other guys trying to make sales to play BS games with BS people.
 

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Yep... and that's why I don't go crazy with the sale price per se. I want an out the door price. You can do whatever you want adding fees, etc but when all is said and done I know what I want and will pay for this vehicle. I've shopped around so you can quote me whatever you want and try to add it back but if the out the door price is changed... i'm out the door. Some would argue I might not get the absolute lowest possible price and they might be right but I DO KNOW I got a hell of a deal, otherwise I didn't buy it. I had one dealer tell me his out the door price with all the fees and when I showed up it was an additional 1,700 higher on the paper work. Luckily for him it was a short drive. An even shorter visit. Went something like this.... "Did I not ask you the out the door price with all of the fees and such. The here's your check price." he says yes but.... I stopped him before he finished. Told him I don't need to know the buts. I only need to know whether you are going to adjust whatever it takes to get that price back to where we agreed. He says, "I can try but..." I stopped him again. I can save you the effort. "There is a reason I call it the out the door price." I got up and left.. with him of course asking me to see what he could do. Never got another response from me. Called 3 days later saying his manager approved. Told him no thanks. I used the price we agreed upon (emailed to me) to get the same vehicle at another dealer with a couple of additional things I didn't need but hey... i'll take 'em. Too many other guys trying to make sales to play BS games with BS people.
Amen.
 

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look up this guy on YouTube. He has many videos regarding car buying.
11 FAKE FEES: DO NOT PAY at Car Dealerships - by AUTO Expert: Kevin Hunter 2020
 

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BS on Nitrogen in tires. Air is composed of 78 percent nitrogen. Oxygen accounts for 21 percent, and the inert noble gas argon makes up 0.9 percent of the air. The remaining 0.1 percent consists of several trace gases. Most of the 0.1 percent is carbon dioxide.
I said Nitrogen is better, for tires, than air.
I did not say how much better, nor did I state to pay for it.

FYI, Nitrogne is larger than oxygen, even that 20% or so of oxugen in the ambient outside air so that stuff, the actually oxygen can more readily leak out of a tire, than nitrogen so nitrogen is better for tires. Somethign about the natural propetiesof the gasses, which I also believe I dstated.

Feel Free to continue giving voice your unproven viewpoint, not based on fact.
WHile I will no longer see it, due to your making my ignore this non inteligent idiot list, you may find others of similar intelilect with whom to discourse.
89 posts?
I see you are fast developing a Reputation
Problem with Reps, they tend to stay with ya.
 

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IMOP Is nitrogen better probably. Do I use it no. OK sounds crazy rite? Well I dont have access to a nitro tank to service and change pressures. And as mentioned once you introduce "regular air" into the mix, well you lost your advantage. The big reason as I mentioned race teams use it is because of the lack of moisture, thats the big reason the pressure does not change as much when warm. And the nitro molecules expand at a different rate. Heck you can use propane if you want (dont its not a good idea)
 

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Dougzram has it nailed. You get taken to the cleaners at any dealership. Here we have a local dealer that's always on tv saying he's taking $15,000.00 off his remaining inventory now. How many people think he's losing money? If you can discount that much off a truck and still make money how much more are you getting robbed if you don't jump on that "deal" and pay MSRP?
 

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On new cars dealers can pretty much print out windows stickers, so the price on those is questionable at best. I dont know of anybody that has paid sticker for a vehicle since like the early 2000's when GM or someone started the "employee pricing" gig. Unless they were a limited production car like Hell Cat or Vette. And with the interweb there is just no reason to, way to much info out there to arm yourself with. My last "new to me" truck my 12 2500 ram was one of the easiest car purchases I have ever made. I did tons of research on what I wanted and had it narrowed to an F250 gasser and the ram 2500 gasser , just because the diesels were mileage and price wise way over what my budget was.
Your money is green and it spend all day everyday so dont be afraid to walk away. After a couple of harrowing gut wrenching deals of thinking this or that vehicle was for us once we had whatever car/truck the ones we had to work really hard at jump thru hoops or what have you always seemed to be later not such a good or enjoyable vehicle. Not saying they were a lemon but just didnt fit the bill as much as we thought or some had mechanical woes. So from then on we have said the deal either goes smooth or the man upstairs is trying to tell us something and walk away.
 

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Maybe pay a buying service a nominal fee to get rid of all those dealer add-on fees for you? For $250, Consumer's Checkbook will turn loose their professional buyers to solicit firm competitive quotes from dealers in your area.

CC is better than Consumer Report's buying service, because not only do they accept no advertising, they work solely on the flat fee. Some of the other popular new sites have dealer kickbacks, so don't use them either.

Unless you have time or like to do all the competitive bidding work yourself. That's not my bag, and I mostly dislike the people in it, so that's what I've done. Can no longer trust "Invoice" online pricing since manufacturer's started getting wise to that 20 some years ago and adding dealer holdbacks into the invoice. So now, both MSRP AND Invoice mean exactly nothing.
 

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Can no longer trust "Invoice" online pricing since manufacturer's started getting wise to that 20 some years ago and adding dealer holdbacks into the invoice. So now, both MSRP AND Invoice mean exactly nothing.
I have to disagree with your above statement.
The dealer's POC (Priced Order Confirmation) discloses the items you mention plus the vehicle Vin #, Family & Freinds and Employee pricing. If the dealer will not give the buyer a copy of the POC they should find another dealer. The bottom line is the POC means everything!
 

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I have to disagree with your above statement.
The dealer's POC (Priced Order Confirmation) discloses the items you mention plus the vehicle Vin #, Family & Freinds and Employee pricing. If the dealer will not give the buyer a copy of the POC they should find another dealer. The bottom line is the POC means everything!
I've never heard of a POC, nor read about it anywhere, nor heard or seen anyone asking for it. I find it hard to believe demanding a detailed order ledger from a product retailer is considered a viable pricing strategy. I can't think of any other business where a customer demands to see what the retailer paid to the factory for a product.
 

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I've never heard of a POC, nor read about it anywhere, nor heard or seen anyone asking for it. I find it hard to believe demanding a detailed order ledger from a product retailer is considered a viable pricing strategy. I can't think of any other business where a customer demands to see what the retailer paid to the factory for a product.
Here's a copy of my redacted POC.
 

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My favorite fee is "Destination". They advertise a discounted price off of MSRP price, and then add it in to the discounted price. The other way they use it is giving all the rebates on the sales sheet and then add it back in there. It was already part of the MSRP, but most people just accept it. I never have and never will. On three different occasions I asked about it and they told me that's how they do it. All three times I got them to take it back off.
Two weeks ago I had a dealer willing to deliver a truck to my house from over 2 hours away and take back my trade sight unseen. I almost went for it because I knew I wouldn't have to spend an hour or so with the finance guy. It was a great deal, but would have liked more for my trade. The big deal breaker was the power steps that come standard on the Limited Ram 1500. I am now shopping for a Larime or Big Horn, just not sure which way to go yet.
 
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