So the next question we had was why do we not see these failures in 03-08 hemis? -All we (myself and 3 other knowledgeable, notable people in the industry) can come up with is billet camshafts and lack of VVT. The hemi was never designed for VVT originally, it was added later. It was designed with MDS originally.

Why does everyone claim the lifters are bad from the factory?-In my opinion they are not bad or a poor design. Nor do I think there were/are QC issues. I believe people see a locked up roller lifter with needle bearings and blame the first thing they see instead of actually identifying the problem. OR by the time the repair was performed identification of the cause may not be as easy to catch. I did it myself with my first set of lifters and forgot about it and drove my truck.

Why do some have zero problems when others have problems? -I cannot answer that, only guess. Myabe most people just start their hemi up, drop it in gear and drive. It seems backwards but I can see one of these lasting longer with people who do that.

5w-20 oil?-In my opinion chrysler knew something was up and recommended the 5w-20 oil as an easy stop gap for lifter life and emissions. With that water thin oil in a v8 it can splash off the crank and travel up to the cam easier. Where as I THINK the 03-08 engines recommended 5w-30.

 

Hey fellas, watch the language.

So the next question we had was why do we not see these failures in 03-08 hemis? -All we (myself and 3 other knowledgeable, notable people in the industry) can come up with is billet camshafts and lack of VVT. The hemi was never designed for VVT originally, it was added later. It was designed with MDS originally.

The 2009+ Eagle Hemi was designed for VVT, that is why the block castings and oil passages are different between the '03-'08 Hemis and the '09+ Eagle 5.7. The Eagle revision was far more extensive than new heads.

 

Not trying to argue- but... what do you want to say with this? Or do I just don't get it? Or do you actually asking a question?

 

what do you want to say with this? Or do I just don't get it? Or do you actually asking a question?

No one is accurately identifying the problem. I, with help of others did and posting the permanent solution. Nothing more nothing less. Hopefully others will learn and fix their own engines, the first time, with what we found.

The questions in post #2 were things the 4 of us all went over. We even had the VVT cast core cam surface hardness checked at 18 rockwell. So surface hardening of stock cast core VVT cams is not an issue. Still waiting on the results of the surface hardness tests of the 03-08 billet core cams.

 

Yeah- again- don't want to argue- but don't waste your precious time and money. You're not the first and not the last one, trying to figure it out.
The only thing I could think of is a oil line over the rockers, spraying the oil on them, like others do with their cam shafts. IF the oil is the issue.
I just doubt, you, with your limited resources and financial background (I'm talking about, I doubt, you have millions to spend on it), this is another shot in the dark.

 

don't waste your precious time and money.

Waste my money on what exactly? Fixing my truck properly?

You're not the first and not the last one, trying to figure it out.

We did figure it out. Thats the point.

The only thing I could think of is a oil line over the rockers, spraying the oil on them, like others do with their cam shafts.

Not sure wtf your talking about here. Doesnt make any sense.

 

with the last question you disqualify yourself and showed me, you have no idea, what you're talking about. Read some books and learn something- you might figure out, what I'm talking about.

Have fun.

 

I know this is an old thread, but you guys are dicks. This man obviously found a solution, which I'll add is similar to your 'oil hose over the rockers' comment. Why is it that when someone wants to post something helpful, ** *** feel the need to try and act smarter?

 

If anyone wants to argue over anything please take it to another thread.

LOL
Good luck with that one pilgrim!

The wear on the camshaft shows the story, rollers were on a cam surface without oil.

How did you detect the wear was "without oil"? Did you just see the wear and assume it was because of running dry, or did you employ a methodology that's , you know, actually scientific. Which is to say a methodology with blind testing and verifiable empirical data?
Of course you didn't.
But let's move on.

So the solution is dedicated roller lifter axle oiling. 1 company makes them. Johnson lifters out of taylor, MI. https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters.aspx

OK, let's just assume, for grins, it's true that "dedicated roller lifter axle oiling is "the solution".
Question one; Can you direct me to the section on Johnson Lifters site where they discuss in specific terms; a) how their lifters have "dedicated" oil supply to the roller axle?, and b) where, in the hemi engine, that "dedicated" oil supply is coming from, given that according to you the only source of oil to that region in the engine is splash from the crank?
(According to the Johnson site you link to, all I can find in the way of claims to a superior hydraulic lifter is an assertion that their machining tolerances are tighter. Please point me to what I'm missing which aligns with your claim of "dedicated" oil supply)

So the next question we had was why do we not see these failures in 03-08 hemis? -All we (myself and 3 other knowledgeable, notable people in the industry) can come up with is billet camshafts and lack of VVT. The hemi was never designed for VVT originally, it was added later. It was designed with MDS originally.

So since your hypothesis fails to explain lack of lifter/cam failure in earlier model years, all you "and 3 other knowledgeable and notable people can come up with" is to shift dramatically from your previous bold certainty that you have identified the problem and start wildly flailing in the direction VVT?
No attempt to evaluate how, or even if, the addition of VVT would influence the splash oiling of the components in question. No data. No empiricism. No nothing.

Another question. Do you have any connection, financial or otherwise, to Johnson Lifters?

I'm with @guy65, and calling bs.

 

If you morons cant even comprehend splash oiling or failure analysis i might as well be arguing with dirt.

 

Ok- then butter by the fish:

Where are your documents? where is the documentation, proving, that engines with higher idle times are more prone? where is your base to your conclusion?
I do stuff like that every day and can tell you- metallurgical analysis are not cheap and if you want to have it right, you also have to be able to understand the test results.

Where is the DATA? And I'm not talking about one or two engines, especially, when I can assume, that the engine on your pictures comes from a Gen. 3.
To be able to draw a conclusion, you need the data from hundreds, when not thousands of engines with the same test results. don't make a fool out of yourself and your 3 buddies with home made wannabe- investigations, just because you think you know something. That's what others went to school for a long time and have relatively high paying jobs.

I have a nice saying from W. Edwards Deming over my desk:

"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion".

Leave the stuff the professionals- you, obviously, are not one, when you don't even know, how the oil supply to bearings works. And yes, I have to do with stuff like that every day.

 

Hopefully your next rebuild lasts longer than 15K miles... Actually the first time I've ever heard of 2, let alone 3 rollers failing. Must have been ticking and misfiring for quite some time.

 

The biggest problem I have with his theory is the leaning towards VVT which has absolutely nothing to do with lifters or lifter oiling - nothing, NADA, zilch as in zero.

 

I think its pretty well determined at this point, there is some lack of lubrication to the rear of the engine. Extended low RPM use means not necessarily enough oil is getting back there which leads to friction breaking down the metals. I think some of it is also lower quality materials.

It has happened to MDS and non-MDS lifters alike so its not an MDS only thing.

When did they add VVT to the mix? Not in 2011 (which is where these issues seem to be most prevalent) so I would say also not a VVT issue just based on that. Not even taking into account the fact that VVT doesnt cause a lack of lubrication.

 

The guy never did answer my question about how the lifters he's touting as "the solution" actually meet his "dedicated roller lifter axle oiling" criteria. There is nothing whatsoever about that characteristic on the lifter manufacturer's website that he links to, nor does he attempt to identify a source of such dedicated oiling in the Hemi.

He didn't respond when asked if he had any financial interest or connection to Johnson Lifters either.

He got some rational pushback on his assertions and instead of expanding on his assertions with evidence and reason he went straight to calling us morons, and now @Cleavor is chewing someone out for it?
Meh.
?‍♂

 

The guy never did answer my question about how the lifters he's touting as "the solution" actually meet his "dedicated roller lifter axle oiling" criteria. There is nothing whatsoever about that characteristic on the lifter manufacturer's website that he links to, nor does he attempt to identify a source of such dedicated oiling in the Hemi.

He didn't respond when asked if he had any financial interest or connection to Johnson Lifters either.

He got some rational pushback on his assertions and instead of expanding on his assertions with evidence and reason he went straight to calling us morons, and now @Cleavor is chewing someone out for it?
Meh.
?‍♂

When you post your finds and recommendations then get the response's from "The Crew Here" I wouldn't bother to answer you either. Clearly if the guy bought an inexpensive truck then had to fix it twice, he isn't vested with Johnson Lifters or you are just too blind to clearly see the trees in the forest.

 

We need more of these types of threads and more options to deal with this thing that plagues so many of us. One thing I would like to add, molybdenum is what fca added to their srt oil to help with dry start friction. That is what most oils use for dry starts, but FCA added 4 or 5 times the average mly level to their srt specific oil. I'm not suggesting this is a magic bullet, but what moly does is it exists where their is pressure when the oil is not there, it stays behind. Yes, if there is something mechanical we can do that would be the best choice, but as an addition we should also follow fca's lead and research lubrication. Look at high moly oils and additives as another thing we can toss at hemi tick. Lubegard biotech is only 6 bucks on amazon, and it oil soluble moly with esters. Poor man's redline is what we call it, but also consider redline oil. These oils and additives have ant friction properties that are left behind when the oil isn't there. Many guys have killed hemi tick with these lubrication strategies. Now, does that mean the cam wont fail, this I can't tell you, just that long term uoa's suggest when you kill hemi tick the wear numbers go down in those engines.

 

Does anyone have issues with Gen 4 and lifter failures or whatever this problem is?
New to forum if anyone know a link to exact or similar issue can you posted it in reply.
Sic Semper Tyrannis.

 

I asked the same question elsewhere and never saw any replies. Not sure if that means not enough 2017+ models have enough miles yet to start showing lifter failures, or if the factory supplier change actually works. I'm worried too. Got the extended warranty just for this.

 

Lifter supplier changed in 2016 so unless a plethora of them in the critical 75K-150K mile range start joining the forums, the quality control of the roller lifter tolerance stack up has been improved from 3sig back to six sigma.

If you want to invest an extra $1K for special lifters in your cam replacement, certainly not going to argue theory or decision as these are also used in 6.4 and 6.2 SC applications.

 

Thanks for the answer.
When you say supplier you mean certain foreign based manufacturer supplying Mopar with crapy parts?
Yeah I looked into some cams and changes people do honestly cant afford that yet.

 

Clearly, if the guy bought a high mileage, ruck because it was inexpensive, thinking at teh time of purchase it would be acceptable to rebuild engine tranny etc, then had to rebuild the engien TWICE< this is a guy we chouls all strive to listen too for guidance and wisdom.

Lets Waste our money buying high mileage junk, then waste more money fixing the same engine TWICE, so we can all Pontificate.

The biggest problem/Funniest thing about Idiots is they tend to think they are the only smart ones.

 

Supplier = company supplying the parts - may be foreign or domestic but not manufactured by FCA themselves.

 

Thanks.

 

Did these issues exist pre 2009?

 

Everything I have read no, but the VVT also didn't exist.

 

My 2012 1500 Ram hemi 5.7 just failed on cylinder 6 with code 306 at 58,000 miles. Heard it get loud and knew something broke right away. I googled the hemi tick years ago and it said its broken exhaust bolts of which I had fixed on the passenger side. Still heard the ticking but a little less, then the driver side started ticking. So I knew the broken bolts were not the problem. The ticking got worst on both sides till 4-15-2020 it broke. It would not accelerate, not idle, really rough. I googled the error code for cylinder 6 misfire and now google says the hemi tick is valve and cam failure. There should be a class action suit for FCA not addressing this known problem. I had a similar problem years ago with Chrysler not addressing blown head caskets on the neon. Never the less I researched the fix on you tube and came to the conclusion that fine metal would be through out bearings and would require total rebuild. I am having a motor swap done for 4100 dollars. Which doesn't fix the bad engineering. I am putting the same f*ck up back into my truck. I saw one solution that used hellcat cam, springs, lifters and disable coils for mds delete. It said they have not had this problem on the hellcat engines. I build this truck and FCA is still putting these bad engines into the trucks and I do apologize after finding this out. The amount of money one pays for this truck, its outrageous that an engine lasts only 58,000 miles Total BS.

 

The best answer on here is Lube Guard Biotech on amazon for 6.00 dollar.I know I can't fix the problem, so I'll see if I can prevent it from happening on my 4100.00 dollar rebuilt hemi. What have you got to lose 6.00 dollars.

 

I forgot to mention my neighbor has the 2017 Ram and its sounding bad with the hemi tick. FCA didn't fix the problem I am being told by parts supplier (auto zone), rebuild shop (Fairway motor exchange). There is no upgrade cam and lifter, they all fail except for the hell cat stuff, but I see if you wanted to replace with hell cat its 20,000.00

 

Hellcat lifters do not cost $20,000 and you ain't using a Hellcat cam in a 5.7.

 

you mean to tell me you cant tell I was talking about the hellcat engine costing 20,000 dollars. Don't reply to comments any more

 

So you actually posted that the only way to solve lifter problems is to install a Hellcat...and you think I'm the one who shouldn't be posting.

Lol

 

MOD NOTE

Taking a week off until I can learn to post without insulting other members.

 

I'm making this post as a PSA. If anyone wants to argue over anything please take it to another thread.

To understand why the cam and lifters are failing in VVT hemis you have to understand something very basic. The cam to roller tappet surface is splash oiled with oil flung off the crankshaft. Its been noted by several posters on this forum that fleet vehicles that idle a lot seem to have more failures. My personal 5.7 sees a good amount of idling as well. Oil splash is lowest at idle. Hence the failures.

A little back story in my personal situation: I purchased a 2009 2500 5.7 hemi 4 door 4x4 long bed from texas cheap. 260K miles or so. Had no idea about hemi cam and lifter failures. I needed a crew cab and 3/4 ton or larger for towing and family etc. but had a budget that kept me away from almost everything. For the price I said to myself, if it needs an engine, trans or rear end its worth it for the clean body. By 262-265k miles a lifter had failed to the point of engine knocking and misfires on cyl. #5. Pulled the motor, new cam, upgraded lifters (i thought), all new gaskets, head job and cleaning/checking of the block bearings etc. etc. Back in business. Drove to 280k miles and i began to hear the dreaded cold start tick. Changed the oil and sure enough I could see some flakes in the oil filter. Pulled engine again and here we are. View attachment 128776 View attachment 128777 View attachment 128778




At first glance the lifters appear to be fine. But note the wear on the cam surface. After i dried some of the oil off the rollers on the lifters the problem became apparent. Several rollers in several lifters had rough spots. I also noticed axial play in some of the rollers. The lack of oil was pounding the roller in the lifter into submission but I cought it before a major failure. The wear on the camshaft shows the story, rollers were on a cam surface without oil. All the metal shavings in the filter, lifter bodies and in the VVT solenoid were very fine and NOT excessive.

So the solution is dedicated roller lifter axle oiling. 1 company makes them. Johnson lifters out of taylor, MI. https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters.aspx
Other companies claim to have "hemi upgraded lifters." I had a set of "those" in my engine. They do not solve the problem of no oil splash at idle!

Hey, I'm new here and about to tear into my 2014 Ram hemi , 85,000 on it lifter knock and I want to use these Johnson lifters, did you use these? Thanks for your great post and your completely RIGHT...I've been investigating this for many months as I also have a Charger and Jeep both with Hemis and both sitting with lifter cam failure! That's right I own THREE failed Hemis...so yes it's a common problem! Thanks again(REALLY)!

Tom

 

I'm new to the forum also and I also have a 2014 Ram Hemi with 85K and change like you, but so far so good. From past experience, I built a 460 engine to race in a small truck some years ago and installed a windage tray, big mistake. By limiting the oil spash factor I've gone through 2 cams with flattened lobes (single lobe) in the same position. Next step is to take out tray. FYI on a former small block roller retro-fit roller by Crane, it was machined out of solid billet steel. I could rev it all day at 6K. Still ran when I built the 460.