DODGE RAM FORUM banner

81 - 99 of 99 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,037 Posts
It's a shame he tries so hard, but there are a few glaring issues with his explanation.
Just to start with is his statement, that when you put in a new camshaft that you have to run it at 2000 rpms to get oil on it.
Wrong on most every aspect. With old flat tappet and old non roller camshafts you had to break them in at 2000 rpms - so that they would spin and get a good wear pattern and not trash the cam. Nothing to do with oil splash as the new lifter had a special break in lube applied during install and the lifters were bathed in oil as was the cam with oil drain back on many engines - though splash oil didn't hurt.
Roller cams require zero break in.

Second - his scuff marks - well a tall lifter being pushed to the side (time after time after time) it will polish the metal on the thrust side most likely. Again unlike old tappets, the roller lifters do not rotate in the bores. Lack of EP additives in the oil is probably the main culprit there.
Also I wish I had a block here to see, but from what I gather via research is the lifter actually gets oil from 2 sources.
Main oil is up through the head, to the rockers and down through the pushrods (aka slant six oiling - and not my favorite way).
But also there is an oil galley in the lifter bore, that from what I can tell has oil during MDS mode and shuts off oil during non-MDS mode. (Again, I wish I had a block to confirm the galley runs to all lifters and it in fact works like that via the MDS solenoids). So during MDS operation the area of the lifter that he says has no oil would just be bathed in oil

This is getting long. In closing the cam being moved up higher wasn't a mistake - it was suggested by the designers of the 426 hemi elephant motor.

I have also seen pictures of pitted cams - this can only happen due to a bad metal or something in the oil ruining the camshaft - maybe very acidic due to short runs and long oil change intervals? Pitting can not be caused by a "lack" of oil.

Supposedly, GM also has had similar failures with their AFM engine (ie. MDS)

Oh well these are my thoughts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
in 2009 vvt was added, MDS in 2007-2008... the 2009 was fully revamped, strengthened... Chrysler was also bankrupt. Sourcing im sure wasn't great.. the Gen3 hemi before that had won awards every year(same design he says is fatally flawed, im sure billions of miles are being rolling on this flawed engine every month). Chrysler sells a gazillion of these.

Also if you don't change your oil MDS can kill your engine... Which nowadays people are like "you don't have to change your oil"... idiots try to run 10k-15k... bad idea with MDS.

I heard the cop cars fail because they idle 16 hours a day with filthy oil and MDS... Ive heard 10-12k oil changes were normal... and the cheap stuff...

This isn't a design flaw... Tony is just looking to get more click bait and make cash off youtube... wants to be scotty kilmer i guess... trash stuff for youtube clicks..

He goes out to allpar/forums and reads and regurgitates info and makes a video on it.

I actually think he knew about the huge oil galley for the lifters, but failed to mention it and embellishes later to support his argument(that makes it seem like that huge oil galley doesn't exist), he seems to think cams/lifters don't move and 30 idle psi means 0 psi?. Chrysler engineers are total morons also? They didn't do ANY testing on this engine? really?

Tony is a bs artist imho, this click bait bs pretty much proves it. I mean its not easy to put out good videos on youtube, it takes cash and connections and 90% of it is worthless garbage. Trashing an engine you have NO clue about is not a way to prove your some sort of engine whisperer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
This video explains how you can tell its a lack of cam oiling, and actually explains the reason for it. And, unless you have added a dedicated oil line to lubricate the cam you won't be fixing it with any kind of new lifters. I'm not attacking, I'm just saying that the op is wrong, his "permanent fix" isn't a permanent fix for anything of these engines that spends a considerable amount of time at idle.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
except he was totally wrong... he has no clue there or he "hid" the fact that there is a giant oil galley in the lifter bore... he looks pretty dumb. He is not a engineer, he isnt a engine designer.

You realize the hemi won awards all the time. Chrysler has recently put out a memo stating they have newly sourced lifters due to an extremely low failure rate. That was the fix... Also if you have MDS you can't ignore oil changes... that kills lifters also
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
If you morons cant even comprehend splash oiling or failure analysis i might as well be arguing with dirt.
Clearly these folks are the glass half empty type and no amount of analysis or technical data will meet there "Expectations". Dude I honor your work here and having not "yet" experienced this problem, I have already bought the Johnson Lifters with axle oiling (yea that they don't get and want a road map of explanations) and a new cam all stored in my "Shop" (garage) for the inevitable. I bought My Ram in 2018 and only have 20K on it with a lifetime warranty (yea forgot how much a lifetime is these days? 10 years? 20 years? As long as I own my truck?) but clearly unless you are going to add an adapter plate on the oil filter and pipe it to both sides of the engine heads to put positive oil flow directly on em (yea It can be done, but............I tarry) the axle oiling principle is far faster a fix and permanently. Thanks for putting up with these air head experts with all fluff and no gruff.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
When you post your finds and recommendations then get the response's from "The Crew Here" I wouldn't bother to answer you either. Clearly if the guy bought an inexpensive truck then had to fix it twice, he isn't vested with Johnson Lifters or you are just too blind to clearly see the trees in the forest.
:love::love::love::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
This video explains how you can tell its a lack of cam oiling, and actually explains the reason for it. And, unless you have added a dedicated oil line to lubricate the cam you won't be fixing it with any kind of new lifters. I'm not attacking, I'm just saying that the op is wrong, his "permanent fix" isn't a permanent fix for anything of these engines that spends a considerable amount of time at idle.

Sort of on track, but not quite sir. The lifters is what needs the oiling to prevent dry forcefukd lifters pounding onto a cam lobe that then wrecks the cam. The problem area is insufficient Lifter Oiling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Sort of on track, but not quite sir. The lifters is what needs the oiling to prevent dry forcefukd lifters pounding onto a cam lobe that then wrecks the cam. The problem area is insufficient Lifter Oiling.
Plenty of oil is getting on the lifters all the time... its bad lifter manufacturing and MDS systems... You PERMA fix the car by swapping new lifters and cam in the car... How can it somehow run 300k after that? Because the oiling system is still bad? NO BECAUSE THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE LIFTERS!! :) Think!! man THINK! Chrysler would be FIXING EVERY Ram 1500 and EVERY hemi car out there if all hemis had poor oiling, do you really think Chrysler engineers are that dumb? AND they recently STATED LIFTER MANUFACTURING and DIRTY OIL! For crying out loud in a bucket... This is why they look at you side ways when you show up and want your car out of warranty fixed for free and oil changes are "sketchy"... Cop cars fail because they don't change the oil and it hoses MDS and MDS causes the lifters to pound into the lobes... MDS gets stuck, it thinks its open when its not... whammo!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Got a 2015 ram 1500, if I get a tuner and disable the MDS and use hellcat lifters will I still be able to use the OEM mopar camshaft?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Got a 2015 ram 1500, if I get a tuner and disable the MDS and use hellcat lifters will I still be able to use the OEM mopar camshaft?
yes, you can use hellcat lifters on MDS(2009+) engines. You can't use old lifters on 2009+ The new lifters are fine also.
You can also use MDS if you run good oil and change it. Why disable it? Make sure your computer is up to date and you use recommended oil and keep it clean. If your worried do an oil test.

I know have various lifters in my possesion. Original 2005, later designs and im going to see if i can see a difference. Some i have are made in various countries (germany, UK, USA, Brazil).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
So the next question we had was why do we not see these failures in 03-08 hemis? -All we (myself and 3 other knowledgeable, notable people in the industry) can come up with is billet camshafts and lack of VVT. The hemi was never designed for VVT originally, it was added later. It was designed with MDS originally.
pardon my ignorance: MDS is not the same as VVT? How would MDS work without VVT?
I purchased a 2014 1500 5.7 with 115k miles and after 5000 more miles had the valve lifter problem. Dealer now replacing all lifters and camshaft (no metal in Oil Control Valve), all per TBS. Also replacing exhaust manifold bolts while in there.
Thanks in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,037 Posts
MDS is multiple displacement - turns on and off 4 cylinders
VVT is variable valve timing - advances and retards the camshaft to adjust cam events timings.

Not related to each other - well other than use oil pressure to activate both systems.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Ok- then butter by the fish:

Where are your documents? where is the documentation, proving, that engines with higher idle times are more prone? where is your base to your conclusion?
I do stuff like that every day and can tell you- metallurgical analysis are not cheap and if you want to have it right, you also have to be able to understand the test results.

Where is the DATA? And I'm not talking about one or two engines, especially, when I can assume, that the engine on your pictures comes from a Gen. 3.
To be able to draw a conclusion, you need the data from hundreds, when not thousands of engines with the same test results. don't make a fool out of yourself and your 3 buddies with home made wannabe- investigations, just because you think you know something. That's what others went to school for a long time and have relatively high paying jobs.

I have a nice saying from W. Edwards Deming over my desk:

"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion".

Leave the stuff the professionals- you, obviously, are not one, when you don't even know, how the oil supply to bearings works. And yes, I have to do with stuff like that every day.
Excellent comment, having taught at a vocational center for 5 years, and writing the curriculum for the diesel program. Data-data-data and then discuss.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
very true... In my world and job "Data is expensive"... :)
and you could ask any manufacturer in the world for data... and you won't get it... so we can only guess and observe... d
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Thought i might add my $0.02, Poor Uncle Tony by his own admission knows very little about the 3rd Gen Hemis. I wouldn't trust his information completely. He's basing a lot of information against the old Chrysler wedgeheads. When i rebuilt my 440, comparing the clearance specs etc, those old dinosaurs would be considered completely worn out compared to a modern engine. .010 maximum taper is allowable. Might as well junk a modern engine with that much taper. Obviously you can't compare the old and the new fairly.

External oiling straight to the heads isn't impossible. It would take someone willing to sacrifice a few engines for testing but it has been done on older Japanese motorcycles.
I personally don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Chrysler never tested these engines for extended idle hours. The perception is that people hop in their car, start it up, and take off right away and the only idling to be done is at stop lights. That's just my personal opinion. I agree with OP in that if you just start the engine and take off you're probably doing a favor to the engine.
The only thing i have to back that up is my 06 Charger R/T that i beat the shit out of daily with 160k miles and the engine is still quiet. People have been telling me for a long time that i was going to have a cam failure very soon and i'm still waiting for it to happen so i can ditch my MDS.
 
81 - 99 of 99 Posts
Top